Range Graduations for MkVI ammunition on British/Dominion WW1 scopes.....

[Roger Payne]

This is just a little offshoot from one of the other current threads in which the subject was touched on of WW1 scopes cropping up occasionally with range drums graduated for MkVI ball ammunition. Forummer Madzi suggested that this phenomenon might be a 'theatre specific' finding - perhaps seen on scopes used in say, Gallipoli, where much ammunition in use was the 'old' round nosed MkVI ball. It sounded very plausible & to cut a long story short, as I was exchanging correspondence with Ian Skennerton over something else I asked him what he thought. He replied to me earlier today & is definitely convinced that this this is the only reasonable explanation, citing the widespread use of MkVI ammunition by ANZAC forces whilst on the peninsula, supported by the fact that the Colonial Ammunition Company were making MkVI for some years after the UK had ceased producing it in quantity for Imperial forces.

It's not irrefutable proof, but the feeling on the forum was that it sounded quite likely, & that belief has been supported by Ian. It might just be of interest if you have a scope with 'Mk VI' engraved on the range drum.

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[CINDERS]

Every one will now be rumaging through their forgotten scopes drawer now Roger for one of these scopes......

[Roger Payne]

I have now received correspondence from lmg15 with considerable detail on dates of switch over from MkVI to MkVII ball production as well as dates of conversion of rifles for MkVII ball ammunition in Australian service, & armed (forgive the pun) with this information it is difficult to arrive at any other conclusion in relation to the Anzacs.

[Madzi]

Would be very interested to see those dates, Roger and Img15, if you're OK to share. In terms of Gallipoli, then, that appears to be a certainty as a candidate theatre, and from Nigel's post on the PPC thread of the article from the Gallipoli Diary, there definitely does seem to be witness accounts of telescopic rifles at Gallipoli, certainly with Scottish Horse. (The Scottish Horse war diary for Gallipoli is at TNA - have been through it, but that was a few years back so will need to look again with new eyes - think it is just hard-copy at the moment). Anyone stumbled across any other evidence of scoped rifles there, particularly photos? Billy Sing with the Aussies appears to have used iron sights. There are additional records of SH at Dunkeld Cathedral, so will need to make a trip up there and see if any further light can be shed!

In terms of other theatres that could be candidates, had written off Salonika after a quick glance at a photo that had spitzer bullet relics, but those could of course have been 7.92x57 from Bulgar MG08's or similar - given relative quantity of the relics, quite likely. As discussed previously, Palestine and the Arab revolt are other candidatates - surrogate forces would generally receive "surplus" firearm and ammunition types (particularly an ally that would have been viewed with some suspicion by the authorities) - and while it is unlikely they would have received telescopic rifles, attached British forces would likely have had firearms calibrated for whatever the locals were using? Other candidate theatre would be East Africa. Would need to see if there is any record of what Pretoria Metal Pressings (?) (PMP) or their predecessors were producing.

[Roger Payne]

Hi Madzi I've sent you some hints on distinguishing different bullet types after they've been buried in the ground for a century, but as the info on the MkVI to MkVII changeover in Australian service came from lmg15 I ought to let him explain......

[Daan Kemp]

what Pretoria Metal Pressings (?) (PMP) or their predecessors

SA Mint was the predecessor. There were other factories also.

[Madzi]

Thanks Daan- Kimberly as well, but both appear to have only been producing from the late 1930's. Given a well established explosives industry and availability of raw materials, thinking there must have been local production in WW1 - can't believe Smuts would have been reliant on supplies from overseas - could however, have had the East Africa campaign as a "dump" for MkVI ammo. Have asked a mate to touch base with the Ditsong Military History Museum to see if there is any info on WW1 production, MkVI specifically.

[lmg15]

Hi Madzi I've sent you some hints on distinguishing different bullet types after they've been buried in the ground for a century, but as the info on the MkVI to MkVII changeover in Australian service came from lmg15 I ought to let him explain......

Roger,

I just lifted the dot points from our PM:
Regarding the use of Mk.VI ball, Ian and I had a chat about that as well. I have often banged on about this in the various forums (Gunboards I think), but the exclusive use of Mk.VI ball on Gallipoli by ANZAC and British forces is something you can bank on.



In brief points:

1. Australia made Mk.VI ball from 1906 to December 1917 at the Colonial Ammunition Factory at Footscray in Melbourne. Thereafter we commenced Mk.VII production in January 1918. That is eight years after than UK factories did.

2. UK ammo factories started producing Mk.VII ball from 1910 onwards. When they ceased making Mk.VI, I do not know, but better cartridge collections than mine may hold the answer.

3. All Lithgow rifles were sighted for Mk.VI ball from commencement of production in 1913 to sometime around the time CAC transitioned to Mk.VII ball, so probably in vicinity of 80,000 Lithgow rifles in Mk.VI

4. Australia stopped providing troops with rifles for overseas service from September 1915. They embarked the troopships without rifles and were issued new Brit made SMLEs when they arrived in the Salisbury training camps. The fact that the Australian rifles were still in Mk.VI may have been a factor in this.

5. All pre WW1 imports of SMLE Mk.III rifles were sighted in Mk.VI ball.

6. First SMLE Mk.IIIs were imported around May 1908, and include some very nice early Enfield 1907 rifles with low serial numbers. Imports ceased at behest of the British WO, who were prescient enough to realise in mid 1914 that Britain would need as many rifles as it could get.

7. All Australian contract rifles made from 1910 onwards at Enfield, BSA and LSA were still produced sighted for Mk.VI ball until these contracts were terminated in 1914.

8. The AIF at Gallipoli used these rifles and Mk.VI ammo throughout the campaign.

9. Back in Egypt in early 1916, the AIF’s rifles and 18 Pounders were turned over to the Brit arsenal system for repair and resighting, with current model Mk.III* rifles in Mk.VII ball issued in replacement. These were the rifles the AIF used in France from mid 1916.

10. Cartridge collectors will tell you that the CAC 1914 dates are hard to find, as the fresh ammo was embarked for the first AIF deployments. The story goes that when they pulled out of Gallipoli, the Mk.VI ammo was burnt on the beach bonfire or dumped at sea as being of no further use. I believe the former but not sure about the latter…

11. A batch of SMLE Mk.IIIs that turned up ex-Turkish stores c.2000 (either through Century or Blue Ridge) contained large numbers of unmolested specimens all still sighted for Mk.VI ball. All were regimentally marked to specific battalions of regiments that fought at Gallipoli / Suvla and Kut.

12. Interestingly, a couple of these rifles were Enfield 1913 or 14 dated. They had the Australian D/I\ stamp on the receiver ring, but this had been cancelled out, and an Indian regiment stamped on instead. One of the cancelled Australian contract no doubt diverted…

13. Ian made the interesting point that our own snipers preferred to use captured Turkish rifles and ammo, as the Mk.VI ball’s MV (2040fps) and high trajectory was not optimal. He was pretty sure that the Mk.VI marked PPCo scopes were made for / used by NZ snipers.

ATB, D

[Daan Kemp]

the Mk.VI ammo was burnt on the beach bonfire

I thought the withdrawal was so quiet the Turks never realised? Fires like that with the noise?

[Nigel]

As promised I did go up in the loft to sort through some files. I found an article "Sniping in Gallipoli" by Wes Olson published in the Australian Shooter (no date that I could find). A few interesting points:
1. There is a picture of 11th Battalion sniper Herbert Hitch with the captured Turkish rifle he used for sniping. His normal duties were of the Battalion's PostMaster.
2. The author refers to telescopic sighted rifles being issued to the filed engineer companies as trench stores which could be requested by units as required. The first use of PPCo. sighted rifles was by the 5th Batt. in June. In August, the 16th Batt. requested " trench periscopes, 12 periscope rifles, three telescopic sight rifles,20 steel loopholes".
3. Other interesting trench stores were Maxim silencers but these would only fit Long Lee Enfields. A Divisional report of October 16th, 1915 noted: the instrument is very effective... and also very effective as a "flame extinguisher" (I think that means flash suppressor) for use for night sniping.
4. On December 9th Corporal John Brown of the 10th Light Horse wrote in his diary "Went up to a good possie and had some sniping with a telescopic rifle".

All the above is not actually from the article I was looking for! I'm now going to have to rip the study apart to find it but hopefully the snippets above lend credence to the argument that telescopic sighted sniper rifles were used on Gallipoli - along with other interesting trench stores such as Maxim silencers.

Roger - Ithink we need to build a Long Lee sniper with Maxim silencer - that would raise a few eyebrows.