+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 43

Thread: 5.7 Johnson and M1 Carbine

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    Contributing Member eb in oregon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Last On
    11-25-2022 @ 12:09 PM
    Location
    Northern Oregon
    Posts
    146
    Real Name
    Eric
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    11:13 AM

    5.7 Johnson and M1 Carbine

    I just found this forum yesterday when searching 5.7 Johnson (5.7 MMJ and .22 Spitfire) and found the thread below fascinating. However it was requested I not revive a thread years old. So here is a new one regarding the same subject.

    First, the 5.7 MMJ was designed by Melvin Johnson for a 40 grain bullet, 50 grain maximum. The 30 Carbine case is just a bit small to get the full potential from a 55 grain bullet. It was loaded originally with 12.5 grains of 4227 powder, 40 grain soft nosed bullet (.22 Hornet), to about 2800 fps, with a 1/16 twist. This information comes from Ed Johnson, Melvin's youngest son, and who actually tried to bring that project to fruition after Melvin died. He can be found on "The Johnson Rifle Site" as the sites originator and owner. Ed has stated that they made right around 200 original Johnson Carbines and they actually sold at a loss in order to get the business going. I load the cartridge myself and use either 35 or 40 grain bullets with a charge of 12 grains of H110 for the two and it does pretty well for accuracy and it is a hot little cartridge that is hands over fist better than the FN 5.7x28 and if used in an M2 Carbine is an awesome package.

    To build a 5.7 Johnson carbine you need a barrel (made by several different business's after Johnson's company folded due to lack of orders) and to re-profile the feed ramp for the cartridge. The feed ramp is the tricky part as I've never seen a drawing or a decent description of how that's done. Plainfield Machine made some later, as did Iver Johnson, IAI, and Fulton Armory. Unfortunately it never generated enough interest when those company's were making those carbines and that's a shame as it is a tremendous cartridge for the platform it was designed for. Of the carbines manufactured for the 5.7 Johnson obviously the original carbines are the best to have but they are getting as rare as fangs on a chicken. I've heard the Fulton Armory carbines were of good quality but have never seen one. The IAI and Iver Johnson had quality problems, which is the primary reason they weren't so successful. I've an original Johnson and an IAI carbine, the Johnson is of a higher quality though it used an aluminum cast trigger housing that Ed Johnson sourced from Plainfield Machine. It was due to the collapse of Johnson that Plainfield even started making M1icon Carbines in the first place. A stock of unsold parts destined for others.

    It has been claimed that the government bought some Plainfield carbines for use by security contractors, however I find that hard to believe as the federal government has huge stocks of M1 Carbines in storage and has been receiving them back for years from foreign country's that were given some later, it makes little sense to buy more from an upstart and new company. I don't know how some of those receivers ended up at the CMPicon but they were never in service with our military. Anyway, the 5.7 Johnson is a good cartridge and it's performance is greater than it's size and weight.

    https://www.milsurps.com/newreply.ph...reply&p=266241

    https://www.johnsonautomatics.com/
    Information
    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
    This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.
    Last edited by eb in oregon; 06-07-2021 at 01:53 PM.

  2. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Chuck in Denver ... Buy-Sell-Trade .. Guns, Cars Motorcycles Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #2
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 02:04 PM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    27,905
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    10:13 AM
    i thin k this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canadaicon and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.
    Regards, Jim

  4. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  5. #3
    Contributing Member eb in oregon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Last On
    11-25-2022 @ 12:09 PM
    Location
    Northern Oregon
    Posts
    146
    Real Name
    Eric
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    11:13 AM
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    i think this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canadaicon and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.
    I'd have to agree with you. It is weird though that in the last 20 to 30 years the firearms industry has created many new small caliber cartridges but the 5.7 Johnson hasn't seen a revival. I believe that if a company would make a new version (especially in stainless steel) it would see a resurgence. As long as people stayed within the parameters of the original design and factory ammunition was available. I would point out though that Ed Johnson has stated in the past one of the reasons the cartridge initially failed was that Johnson had a hard time trying to get anybody to make factory ammunition for it. Those that did didn't make much, so ammunition was a problem. And most people don't want to spent the time and effort to "roll" their own. One of my dreams for years has been an M2 Carbine in 5.7 MMJ. With decent magazines and not that imported rubbish.

    Video: 5.7 mm Johnson Spitfire Carbine | American Rifleman | Official Journal Of The NRA

  6. #4
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 02:04 PM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    27,905
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    10:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by eb in oregon View Post
    With decent magazines
    USGI... I'd just make my own anyway. Probably just gas check cast and as heavy as I could find for a mould.
    Regards, Jim

  7. #5
    Advisory Panel tiriaq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 07:00 PM
    Location
    Central Ontario
    Age
    76
    Posts
    1,014
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    01:13 PM
    Years go I read an article wherein the author made up a 5.7 on a carbine. He cut the barrel off outboard from the gas block, bored out the stump, and sleeved in a .22 barrel. Did it this way to preserve the slide grooves in the barrel.

  8. #6
    Contributing Member eb in oregon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Last On
    11-25-2022 @ 12:09 PM
    Location
    Northern Oregon
    Posts
    146
    Real Name
    Eric
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    11:13 AM
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by tiriaq View Post
    Years go I read an article wherein the author made up a 5.7 on a carbine. He cut the barrel off outboard from the gas block, bored out the stump, and sleeved in a .22 barrel. Did it this way to preserve the slide grooves in the barrel.
    That individual may have done so when barrels were difficult to come by and I recall once seeing something the same. Conversions of .30 caliber barrels to a smaller caliber by boring out the original barrel and sleeving. And too if the proper twist rate is used I see little difficulty in using a .22 liner. Some liners have thicker walls than others and probably can be used to change caliber.

    As for the issue of Plainfield's being used by the US government this might help clear up the picture.

    Plainfield Machine Company

  9. Thank You to eb in oregon For This Useful Post:


  10. #7
    Legacy Member Bruce McAskill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    11-05-2022 @ 11:48 PM
    Posts
    1,879
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    02:13 PM
    The government at one point had many hundreds of thousands of carbines in storage. They started giving and selling these as assistance to many friendly governments. Vietnam was the major source of carbines being sent to friendly countries and the South Korea too. Both got many hundreds of thousands of carbine. So many were used that there were none available for use here. Thailand is a prime example of not enough carbines to go around. Contracts with Howa in Japanicon were made and surplus WW2 equipment was sent to Howa to make carbines. 10,000+ carbines were made and sent to Thailand. Police agencies with in the military had no access to carbines so the next thing was contracts to the likes of Plainfield to supply these needs. These were later sold off as surplus to the militaries needs. But any county that was anti-Communist got carbines.

  11. #8
    Contributing Member eb in oregon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Last On
    11-25-2022 @ 12:09 PM
    Location
    Northern Oregon
    Posts
    146
    Real Name
    Eric
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    11:13 AM
    Thread Starter
    I have no idea how many carbines Plainfield made, but I'm sure they didn't make their own carbine until Millville Ordnance (a company Plainfield was supplying parts) folded and they were left with a bunch of parts, so Plainfield started making them under their name. I'll also conjecture that any carbines that Plainfield made was a direct response to a contract for other governments purchasing them and our government did no more than rubber stamp the contract and ability to export to those governments. As for Plainfield receivers ending up at the CMPicon it was more likely that when those firearms were collected from the users that no attention was paid to manufacturer and they were just collected and crated, then returned. I've read nothing that stated or suggested that Plainfield ever had a contract to supply M1icon Carbines directly to the US government.
    Last edited by eb in oregon; 06-09-2021 at 09:18 PM.

  12. #9
    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 11:18 AM
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,103
    Real Name
    Robert Seccombe
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    02:13 PM
    I still have a screwdriver marked Millville Ordnance which they gave you with a large parts order.

    I always heard the 5,7mm was 40gr bullet @ 3000 fps and that was published

    There was also another carbine wildcat called the 30 Kurtz using a 308 case cut down to 33 mm and necked down
    to 30 cal. required a new barrel, never really got off the ground

  13. #10
    Legacy Member Bruce McAskill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    11-05-2022 @ 11:48 PM
    Posts
    1,879
    Local Date
    11-28-2022
    Local Time
    02:13 PM
    The contracts were made. Many were in armories of base police after military personal no long stood guard duty at the gates to bases. I have seen them there over the years along with M14icon rifles. Back in 1991 the M14 rifles were recalled. Went to play in the sand box. Several years later the carbines were taken away and replaced with M16 rifles. A lot of carbines were sent to Capt. Crunch too. Many were put into piles, covered with diesel and sent afire. When the fire was out an M60 tank was used to roll over the pile again and again till nothing was left useable. Just twisted piles of blacked metal.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. M1 Carbine Iver Johnson
    By imntxs554 in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-15-2014, 04:02 PM
  2. M1 carbine 5.7 Johnson ???
    By gunsdora in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 07-01-2013, 11:28 PM
  3. M1 Carbine-Barrel picked out & finished by Eric Johnson stock made by Robert Owen
    By Ricks4654 in forum Appraisals, Fakery, Dispute Resolution & Mediation Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-08-2011, 05:59 PM
  4. value/safety of iver johnson carbine ??
    By tator62 in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-24-2010, 06:43 PM
  5. Johnson LMG
    By Mac308 in forum Other U.S. Service Rifles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-13-2010, 06:48 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts