+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Are .303 Enfield surplus bullet components transferrable to a 7.7 Arisaka?

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    Legacy Member BJung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Last On
    05-20-2022 @ 12:41 AM
    Location
    California
    Posts
    36
    Local Date
    08-18-2022
    Local Time
    07:40 PM

    Are .303 Enfield surplus bullet components transferrable to a 7.7 Arisaka?

    Various threads claim that the 7.7 Arisakaicon is a rimless version of the .303 Enfield. The load data is close. Has anyone read any threads of shooters transferring the primer, powder, and bullet directly to an Arisaka 7.7 case and shooting it?

  2. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Chuck in Denver ... Buy-Sell-Trade .. Guns, Cars Motorcycles Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #2
    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Last On
    Today @ 11:01 AM
    Location
    Centurion RSA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    1,194
    Real Name
    Daan Kemp
    Local Date
    08-19-2022
    Local Time
    04:40 AM
    Sound feasible as long as you ensure the loads are safe. Check bullet diameter., load, etc first. Others will be along to discuss further.

    Keep in mind there were three different 7,7 rounds and make sure you are reloading the correct one correctly.

    Why not just shoot the 303 in a LE and dispose of them that way?

  4. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  5. #3
    Legacy Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 02:10 AM
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    2,147
    Local Date
    08-19-2022
    Local Time
    12:40 PM
    There were THREE "7.7" Japaneseicon rounds.

    7.7 x 56R is IDENTICAL to .303 Brit. It was, like the entire Japanese navy, based on Royal Navy practice. This extended to "traditions" (delete rum, insert Sake) and uniforms.

    The Japanese ARMY was modeled on PRUSSIAN practice and doctrine, with a big chunk of Bushido thrown in

    The army (and, by extension, the Air Force) did things their own way. There is a 7.7. "semi-rimmed" round, basically a semi-rimmed, "improved" .303, developed originally for machine-gun use, and a 7.7 RIMLESS, basically the semi-rimmed MG round with a less prominent "rim", for rifle use.

    What were they thinking? Especially as the 6.5 x 50 was still ubiquitous.

    Because the "initial" 7.7 x 56R was a straight copy of the .303, it used a .312" bullet. In a rare bit of logical thinking, the later two Japanese 7.7mm rounds used the same bullet diameter.

    The same "Mk Vll" .303 bullets work well in 7.65 Argentineicon and variations on that theme, AND 7.62 x 54R, if you feel a desperate need to waste valuable .303 Mk Vll bullets in a Mosin Nagant or DP, etc.

    For the truly obsessive, Russianicon 7.62, be it x 54, x 39 or x 25, is REALLY, "7.62"mm BORE diameter, exactly the same as the .30-06 AND 7.62 NATO, share a .300" nominal BORE diameter. The difference is the nominal GROOVE diameter, 9plus or minus engineering / manufacturing tolerances.

    Note that those crafty Finns developed their own variation for their TKIV sniper rifle series; the 7.62 x 53R. This is EXACTLY the same basic cartridge as per the parent 7.62 x 54R, BUT topped off with a .308" diameter Sierra Match King and fired through barrels optimized for the x 53R loadings

    KNOW YOUR AMMO SPECS!

    What's a few thou among friends? See also: "Close enough for Government work".
    Last edited by Bruce_in_Oz; 11-10-2021 at 06:21 AM.

  6. Thank You to Bruce_in_Oz For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Legacy Member bob q's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Last On
    Today @ 04:37 PM
    Location
    north texas
    Posts
    387
    Local Date
    08-18-2022
    Local Time
    09:40 PM
    Another internet myth . The 7.7x58mm rifle cartridge has nothing to do with the .303 Brit other than using the same bullet dia . It is not a rimless version as it has a different case shape and volume . It IS 7.7mm version of the 8x57mm cartridge . They had been fighting the Chinese who where using the 8mm , they wanted that performance gain over their 6.5mm . They just necked down a 8x57mm case to take a 7.7mm bullet they already were making and so they did not need to retool to make 8mm barrels on top of 7.7mm . A 8x57 case necked down gets a little longer , hence the 58mm case length . A 7.7 case can be made from a 8mm case [ not a 303 brit ] and any 8x57mm load data is fine for the 7.7mm as they are the same except for a .012 in bullet dia .

  8. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to bob q For This Useful Post:


  9. #5
    Advisory Panel Parashooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 07:39 PM
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    77
    Posts
    673
    Local Date
    08-18-2022
    Local Time
    10:40 PM


    Be cautious if forming 7.7 Arisakaicon cases from 8x57 Mauser. There are significant dimensional differences, notably the head-shoulder (headspace) length.

  10. The Following 3 Members Say Thank You to Parashooter For This Useful Post:


  11. #6
    Legacy Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 02:10 AM
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    2,147
    Local Date
    08-19-2022
    Local Time
    12:40 PM
    Furthermore, a LOT of Type 99 rifle chambers are "generous", to say the least. Apparently hand-loading was not big in the Imperial Japaneseicon Army.

    There are occasional lot of Norma or Privi Partizan 7.7 loaded ammo and / or unfired cases briefly in the shops. Specialty reloading suppliers would be a good place to start.There are also a couple of European sporting cartridges that have a similar diameter at the rear. If you can rustle up a hundred or so cases, that will keep you grinning for decades, unless you keep losing them whilst deer-hunting or similar.

    Whichever way you go, neck-size with minimal "shoulder bump If you also neck anneal every-do-often, the cases will last a LONG time. It can all get a bit fiddly, but that's the additional price for playing with "exotic" goodies.

  12. Thank You to Bruce_in_Oz For This Useful Post:


  13. #7
    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Last On
    Today @ 11:01 AM
    Location
    Centurion RSA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    1,194
    Real Name
    Daan Kemp
    Local Date
    08-19-2022
    Local Time
    04:40 AM
    Compare the dimensions of the Mauser cartridges with many many other cartridges and you will find a common head and rim size, including the 45ACP. The same with many big game cartridges.

  14. #8
    Legacy Member bob q's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Last On
    Today @ 04:37 PM
    Location
    north texas
    Posts
    387
    Local Date
    08-18-2022
    Local Time
    09:40 PM
    The 8x57mm case head size was developed by the Germanicon military and Mauser starting with the 8x57 and 7.65x54 and 7x57 . They wanted to be able to make the same rifle and case parts and tooling and not have to change anything but the barrel . The US worked off of those to make the 30/03 - 30/06 , which was used as the base for most US cartridges , just like Mauser used it as the base for all Mauser cartridges . That is why the 7.7mm is made from the 8x57mm . All other countries used a different case head , Italyicon , Swedenicon , Japanicon with it's 6.5mm , the Swissicon , Englandicon , Franceicon , Russiaicon , Austriaicon and so on .

  15. #9
    Legacy Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 02:10 AM
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    2,147
    Local Date
    08-19-2022
    Local Time
    12:40 PM
    Attachment 121377

    Imperial Metric
    A .473 12.01
    B .472 11.99
    C 23 deg
    D .430 10.92
    E .338 8.58
    F 1.870 47.5
    G .413 10.49
    H 2.283 58

    Nominal case dimensions.

    Figures from various reloading manuals vary by a 'thou or two, here and there.

    I'm guessing that the original arsenals were probably not handing out technical data to reloaders at the time this cartridge was in active service.
    Last edited by Bruce_in_Oz; 11-11-2021 at 08:04 PM.

  16. Thank You to Bruce_in_Oz For This Useful Post:


  17. #10
    Advisory Panel Parashooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 07:39 PM
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    77
    Posts
    673
    Local Date
    08-18-2022
    Local Time
    10:40 PM
    Here's CIP dimensions for 8x57 - and SAAMI, too -



    My opinion is that the 7.7 Arisakaicon is loosely based on the 8x57 Mauser case, but was finalized a tad fatter at the back end and longer body-to-shoulder. The fat rear isn't a problem when forming 7.7 cases from 8mm or .30/06 as long as excess pressure is avoided (see image below), but .040 to .050 excess headspace could be one when forming from 8x57 without precautions.


    Last edited by Parashooter; 11-12-2021 at 01:19 AM.

  18. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to Parashooter For This Useful Post:


+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-17-2021, 04:56 PM
  2. .318'' groove No.4 Enfield, what bullet to use?
    By paddywonka in forum Ammunition and Reloading for Old Milsurps
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 05-02-2019, 09:53 PM
  3. Lee enfield No4 MK1 F cast bullet need info and help
    By 84mmcarl-gustav in forum Ammunition and Reloading for Old Milsurps
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-03-2017, 04:36 PM
  4. Will a fired bullet hit the ground at the same time as a dropped bullet?
    By WarPig1976 in forum The Watering Hole OT (Off Topic) Forum
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 07-02-2016, 01:19 AM
  5. 7.62X54 Question about bullet replacement in Mil Surplus rounds...
    By jrapose in forum Ammunition and Reloading for Old Milsurps
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 01-28-2016, 09:56 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts