+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 37

Thread: Air Show Crash at CAF Dallas Air Show

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #11
    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 09:26 PM
    Location
    South West England, United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,705
    Real Name
    Bean
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    02:35 PM
    What are the chances of the Commemorative Airforce ever being able to find another B17 suitable to be made airworthy again? I know that there are various examples in museums but what about examples available for restoration to flight?

  2. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Chuck in Denver ... Buy-Sell-Trade .. Guns, Cars Motorcycles Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #12
    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 08:07 AM
    Location
    Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts
    6,515
    Real Name
    Steve
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    09:35 AM
    They have several B-17's and another P-63. Still a massive loss to history.

  4. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to Aragorn243 For This Useful Post:


  5. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  6. #13
    Moderator
    (M1 Garand/M14/M1A Rifles)
    Bob Womack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 09:35 AM
    Location
    Somewhere Between Clever and Stupid
    Posts
    3,226
    Real Name
    Bob Womack
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    09:35 AM
    Thread Starter
    B-17 "Liberty Belle" developed a fuel tank fire in the port wing, was put down in a cornfield, and burned up.








    Restoration to airworthiness is currently underway. That's amazing. Out of a total of forty-five survivors, there are currently nine airworthy examples, six known to be undergoing restoration to airworthiness, and five that are registered with the FAA that are currently static displays.

    Bob
    "It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "

    Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

  7. The Following 3 Members Say Thank You to Bob Womack For This Useful Post:


  8. #14
    Legacy Member limpetmine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 11:16 AM
    Location
    US of A
    Posts
    960
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    08:35 AM
    Tragic loss of life. I'll state if you want your kids of grandkids to see a B-17 or B-29 flying, you'd better do it in the next year or so. The age of WWII flight is coming to a close.

  9. #15
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 07:20 AM
    Location
    Southern Corner Western Australia
    Posts
    7,276
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    10:35 PM
    It seems the fighters were doing their circus whilst the B-17 and B-25 were at a lower level flying past the field.
    From what I took from the video whilst listening to the commentator of it who is a member of the Dallas fraternity with a few thousand hours in WWII aircraft you can see what happens pretty clearly from the video from the airfield and the one from the shopping mall car park.
    The B-17 was lower than the Cobra and in a slight bank to port if you can see this in the air field shot, the Cobra's layout being mid engined with a long nose gear means it actually has a long nose and the thickest part of the wing is right where the pilot is, restricting ones vision, having a car door type cockpit also adds to the restrictive views.
    The author demonstrated this by video's he took flying a P-51 and the King Cobra on just how cluttered the forward and side views were in the latter compared to the rather open view from the P-51.

    Back to the airfield shot; off to the right of the B-17 you can just make out the Cobra coming in at a fairly steep turn to port as the P-51's had already gone out of shot with their circus this placed from what I can gather the B-17 squarely underneath the Cobra's starboard wing or fuselage as he banked to port so the B-17 was obscured out of view of its pilot.
    There was no avoiding action by either plane indicating neither saw each other.
    So many questions will be asked but the main one is who worked out the degree of separation why not have the bombers at 1500Ft hard deck no higher and the fighters at 2500Ft no lower.
    Very sad loss of life may their souls find peace and their families, to those that witnessed this tragedy I hope you do not lose the passion of these great displays, sadly a great historical artifact of the USAicon was lost hopefully another will take its place.
    R.I.P.
    Last edited by CINDERS; 11-14-2022 at 11:23 AM.

  10. Thank You to CINDERS For This Useful Post:


  11. #16
    Contributing Member Sarge1998's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 06:41 PM
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    574
    Real Name
    Joseph Budde
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    08:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
    Restoration to airworthiness is currently underway. That's amazing. Out of a total of forty-five survivors, there are currently nine airworthy examples, six known to be undergoing restoration to airworthiness, and five that are registered with the FAA that are currently static displays.
    Bob
    That airport is a 20 minute drive for me, amazing to safely land and get everyone aboard evacuated before the plane was consumed by the flames.

  12. #17
    Contributing Member Sarge1998's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 06:41 PM
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    574
    Real Name
    Joseph Budde
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    08:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
    Which is complete red herring, given the P-63 was clearly banking inside the turn, so the B-17 was hidden below the cockpit floor in effect, so the blindspot the B-17 was in was nothing to do with the view out of the cockpit!

    I've seen a comment from someone involved that the display airboss cleared the fighters into the lower bomber circuit, as had been the pre-show brief if it was clear to do so, which if true, means the airboss either didn't see/expect the B-17 to be there, or more likely cleared the P-51 through and hadn't seen the smaller front profile of the P-63 following it into the lower circuit as well.....
    IMO this is the person most responsible for the tragedy, not thought out of what can go wrong will go wrong. All three pilots were highly qualified, I'm surprised someone didn't speak up during the pre-flight or while being cleared to enter the altitude at which the planes converged. That airboss/controller should never be allowed to hold that duty again, if it's within your control you are responsible. ALL future air shows should have strict regulations related to multiple aircraft and aircraft types flying in the same relative airspace. These are civilian professionals participating in a weekend hobby. Husband of my wife's HS BFF had VIP tickets to Friday's show but it was rained out, he was rescheduled for Sunday but the event was cancelled after this tragedy. My initial knee jerk reaction was to blame the Aircobra pilot, but I've shifted that to place the responsibility on the event air traffic controller.

  13. #18
    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 08:07 AM
    Location
    Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts
    6,515
    Real Name
    Steve
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    09:35 AM
    I tend to agree that it was the air boss's fault. I've been attending one of these for 20 plus years and have never seen the fighters at the same time as the bombers unless they were doing something very specific like and escort for photographs, they are always at the same relative speed also. I attend the Reading WWII weekend in Pennsylvania, and they have several CAF aircraft at every show. B-29's, B-24's, B-17's and the smaller two engine bombers. The four engine bombers generally simply circle around at relatively low altitudes and do photo passes just as this one apparently was doing. The other classes of planes typically do the same thing with a few exceptions with one or two of the fighter planes which perform stunts of various sorts, generally rolls, climbs, etc. But while this is happening, all the other planes are well clear of the airfield. It is kind of boring watching the slow passes but then these aircraft are 75 plus years old and few and far between so it's understandable not to put them at risk.

  14. #19
    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 09:26 PM
    Location
    South West England, United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,705
    Real Name
    Bean
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    02:35 PM
    With these sort of things when things start to go wrong they can go wrong very quickly and before people have time to react. Mid-air collisions were one of the unfortunate things that happened during WW2. With this accident once the authorities have got to the bottom of exactly what happened, hopefully, they can make it less likely to happen in the future.

    In general terms and not saying that it happened in this case, for want of a better way of putting it, there can on occasions, I believe, be an element of "showing off" at airshows. Unfortunately luck can sometimes run out.

  15. #20
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 07:20 AM
    Location
    Southern Corner Western Australia
    Posts
    7,276
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    02-03-2023
    Local Time
    10:35 PM
    It was all supposed to have changed after the Italianicon debacle performing the pierced heart manoeuvre that air shows would be made safer.
    Thankfully no one on the ground or outside the perimeter was killed or injured but who ever thought up that flight plan should find their way to jail as obviously the degree of separation between the groups and flight paths was just a sheer and total cluster eff up.

    When you view the footage planes are basically going everywhere in the same direction but the height separation between the fighters and bombers is alarmingly narrow, almost as bad as an actual war sortie !!!!
    Last edited by CINDERS; 11-15-2022 at 05:33 AM.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. My Best Gun Show Ever
    By Aragorn243 in forum Milsurps General Discussion Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-15-2017, 09:17 PM
  2. Gun show first for me
    By Charlie in forum The Lee Enfield Knowledge Library Collectors Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-28-2012, 04:14 AM
  3. Dallas Gun Knife & Military Show June 9&10
    By Don W in forum M1903/1903A3/A4 Springfield Rifle
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-07-2012, 11:34 AM
  4. NRA Nat'l Gun Collectors Show ~ Displays, Dallas Aug. 20-21
    By Don W in forum M1903/1903A3/A4 Springfield Rifle
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-14-2011, 01:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts