More Bad Press For The Enfield

[Son]

Gentlemen, I have also drafted a letter to the editor. I will leave it posted here for 24 hours seeking comment and input from any and all before I send it on.

Hook in guys- I need to get this right!

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Dear Sir.

I'm saddened to see a publication like Sporting Rifle being used to further an agenda of someone who seems to be bent on discrediting one of Great Britian's truly great icons, the Lee Enfield Rifle.
The article named above started out as in informative "personal experience" piece about how best to cope with wet conditions on the range. If he had continued in this vein, the author Chris White would have made a positive contribution to the factors taken into account by shooters heading out for a day at the range. But this is just a set-up. Instead he moves to a point he seems to have picked up on from a statement made by the NRA in the US recently and ends up putting out a very negative message.

The NRA accused the Lee Enfield of being dangerous and banned it from certain NRA events. In expanding on the NRA's unsubstantiated claims of "failures .... after prolonged use which is exacerbated by the use of cartridges contaminated by wet weather or oil" Mr White has conveniently shown that it often rains in England where Lee Enfields are often used on ranges and so they must be becoming dangerous.
In recognizing his attempt to put fear of failure and injury into the minds of the men and women who proudly use their firearms week in and week out at their local clubs and representative events, I have to ask the question... what has he got to gain?

Mr White's article is sensationalism in it's worst form. It is not only unsubstantiated in itself, but is also nothing more than a plagiarized idea from another unsubstantiated piece from the US, as well as being an attack an icon of British and Commonwealth history.

Your magazine really needs to ask Mr White to either put up the evidence to back his story- the rifle deserves this at least (evidence that the NRA in the US cannot even provide) or print a retraction of his comments.

I can inform you that that the UK MoD doesn't have any record of a Lee Enfield breaking due to water on the ammunition or the rifle. Perhaps Mr White needs to speak to someone who actually knows the topic, not rely on an NRA release.

I have copied the NRA statement below for you to form your own opinion. Even if you see their point, you will also see the second half of Mr White's article is nothing but a tale built around this......

words fail me....




7.62/.308 Enfield Conversion Safety Alert
Further consideration is being given to any potential
safety issues concerning the use of .308 Win (7.62mm
x 51) factory ammunition in 7.62mm conversions of
Enfield No 4 rifles. Discussions are ongoing with the
UK Proof Authorities over a joint statement which
will be published as soon as it is available on the NRA
website and in the Journal. Pending that statement, the
Association must apply the precautionary principle,
thus the following advice remains extant:
A basic principle of Firearm Safety is that the
individual is wholly responsible for the safety
of the firearm/ammunition combination he
proposes to use. However, in competitions
where ammunition is “as issued” the NRA has
a duty to ensure that the ammunition it issues
does not create a hazard.

The Enfield No 4 action and its derivatives
were originally designed for use with the .303”
cartridge which has a lower maximum cartridge
pressure than the .308 cartridge. The actions
were produced in huge numbers by several
factories to varying standards.
These conversions are not all “factory”
conversions as barrels of many different makes
with varying internal dimensions have also been
fitted to a number of such actions over the years.
Additionally the history of the usage of most
of these actions is not traceable. There is some
evidence of failures of these converted actions
after prolonged use which is exacerbated by the
use of cartridges contaminated by wet weather
or oil.
As the NRA is now supplying ammunition
manufactured especially to its requirement, they
are no longer prepared to allow the use of these
conversions in events where the ammunition
is provided. Nor do they condone the use of
this particular ammunition in these rifles at
any time.
What the shooter chooses to fire through their
rifle upon other occasions is of course entirely
at their own risk and liability."


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Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alan de Enfield]

Gentlemen, I have also drafted a letter to the editor. I will leave it posted here for 24 hours seeking comment and input from any and all before I send it on.

Hook in guys- I need to get this right!

-------------------------------------
Dear Sir.

Having been introduced to your magazine a good while ago through several articles on Lee Enfield sniper rifles, I felt I had to contact you to express my sentiments about your March edition.

---------------------------------

Son - I think maybe you are getting the magazines 'mixed up'.
The magazine in question is "Sporting Rifle" (Not Target Shooter) and Whilst I have been taking the magazine there have been no articles on the Enfield Sniper rifles.

Apart from that - great letter.
Thanks

[Beerhunter]

The article purports to be about advice to TR (Target Rifle) shooter. Now the one thing that TR shooters do NOT like is rifles that have magazines because they are inherently evil and may contaminate the Holy ground at Bisley. Especially as some of the shooters of these nasty guns insist on USING the magazines in some competitions.

If TR shooters such as the author do not point out how evil magazine rifles like Lee-Enfields are then some unscrupulous members of the NRA may even use them on Stickledown. I have personally witnessed them being used on Century rather than Short Siberia - where they rightly belong with all the other 'cowboy' guns.

There is no doubt that the people who shoot these horrible inventions do not 'know the form' and will insist on grinning and generally having good time. (You know know who I mean - LERA. At least some of the HBSA are a bit po faced and have been to 'good' schools.) Unless a stand against Lee-Enfields is made now, the NRA may find that a lot more people are using them.

[Surpmil]

The article purports to be about advice to TR (Target Rifle) shooter. Now the one thing that TR shooters do NOT like is rifles that have magazines because they are inherently evil and may contaminate the Holy ground at Bisley. Especially as some of the shooters of these nasty guns insist on USING the magazines in some competitions.

If TR shooters such as the author do not point out how evil magazine rifles like Lee-Enfields are then some unscrupulous members of the NRA may even use them on Stickledown. I have personally witnessed them being used on Century rather than Short Siberia - where they rightly belong with all the other 'cowboy' guns.

There is no doubt that the people who shoot these horrible inventions do not 'know the form' and will insist on grinning and generally having good time. (You know know who I mean - LERA. At least some of the HBSA are a bit po faced and have been to 'good' schools.) Unless a stand against Lee-Enfields is made now, the NRA may find that a lot more people are using them.

Just as I suspected.

What a pathetic, parochial bunch of snobs; with nothing to be snobbish about. What sort of rifles do they think won the Queen's/King's Prize for the last 100+ years?

They might not rest so proudly on their Swings if they paid attention to this:
Target Shooter December
Go to page 8 and read "5.56mm and 7.62mm Outlawed"

"Hang together, or hang one by one". Take your pick.

[Mk VII]

They DO shoot high when they get wet (usually about five minutes high) and it is a fair criticism of a rifle which can reasonably expect to be used in a variety of weather. And the author is referring to the 7.62 ones, so knock off all this stuff about the Somme. A combination of oily cartridge plus strong rain WILL run up pressures and people who think they can repeatedly develop something approaching proof pressure without consequences are fooling themselves.

Geez, anyone would think someone had just spat on the flag. Lighten up.

[Thunderbox]

They DO shoot high when they get wet (usually about five minutes high) and it is a fair criticism of a rifle which can reasonably expect to be used in a variety of weather. And the author is referring to the 7.62 ones, so knock off all this stuff about the Somme. A combination of oily cartridge plus strong rain WILL run up pressures and people who think they can repeatedly develop something approaching proof pressure without consequences are fooling themselves.

Geez, anyone would think someone had just spat on the flag. Lighten up.

Yes, but there is no evidence that oil and/or rain cause a pressure to develop that is anywhere near the elastic limit of the action.

There is not the slightest evidence that, in 40 or so years of 7.62mm Enfield use, there exists any kind of problem related to the use of the round. Show me a "stretched action" - I haven't yet found anyone in the gun trade who can.

Sorry, but publications and the UK NRA should not be perpetuating internet myth without providing some evidence in support.

[Strangely Brown]

I agree with MkVII on this one; rain will up the pressure and it's only sensible house keeping to keep ammunition as dry as possible, I have shot at Bisley in pouring rain next to another club who were using converted No4's and not taking the slighest interest in keeping ammunition dry, and that is not a comfortable feeling!

LERA's take on this is that club 7.62mm converted No 4's will only be used with 144 Grn ammunition, and as TR Captain I believe that this is a sensible course to take. I have reloaded 150 Grn Sierra Match Kings for No 4 actions but would not (my choice) use 155 Grn bullets.

We have to be accountable for our actions when sharing range space with other people, however it does not mean that I agree entirely with the NRA statement which I think was badly researched and worded.

[Beerhunter]

I agree with MkVII on this one; rain will up the pressure and it's only sensible house keeping to keep ammunition as dry as possible.

I agree as well and I even try to keep my .303 dry, for accuracy reasons. It is the hysteria that I object to.

[Edward Horton]

A wet or oily chamber and or cartridge does NOT increase chamber pressure, oil or water in the chamber prevents the cartridge case from gripping the chamber walls and increases rearward "bolt thrust" or force on the bolt.

The highest the "bolt thrust" can be is equal to is the chamber pressure of the fired cartridge. On the .308/7.62 cartridge this is 50,000 CUP or 60,000 PSI.

Below is from Jim Sweets book "Competitive Rifle Shooting" first printed in 1946 and these pressures were from laboratory testing, the pressures listed are for the .303 cartridge.



Item "a" should always be done before shooting.



In simple terms if "ALL" your fired ammunition is oily or wet the life expectancy of your rifles action is cut in half. The first indications you will see from repeated shooting of oiled or wet cartridges is a increase in rifle head space.

As the head space increases on the rifle from excess bolt thrust the pounding the bolt lug recesses in the receiver, bolt lugs, bolt body and bolt head increases dramatical. AFTER your rifles maximum head space has occurred the possibility of the action body stretching and cracks and fractures occurring increases.

Oil or water in the chamber has the same effect on ALL rifles not just the Enfield Rifle. Our new American short "magnum" cartridges because the cases have much less surface area to grip the chamber walls are pounding these new rifles into early retirement.



Know thy rifle. And read the books and manuals on the subject before you go off half cocked and write gun articles on subjects you haven't researched.

[ireload2]

Oil or water in the chamber has the same effect on ALL rifles not just the Enfield Rifle. Our new American short "magnum" cartridges because the cases have much less surface area to grip the chamber walls are pounding these new rifles into early retirement.



Know thy rifle. And read the books and manuals on the subject before you go off half cocked and write gun articles on subjects you haven't researched.

All rifle designs are not the same. Therefore oil or water in the chamber does lead not to the same reaction in all designs. Muzzle loaders must really be dangerous since they have no brass at all. You need some background in math and physics to filter the stuff you read or you will just repeat information you BELIEVE but do not KNOW to be true. Try understanding Hooke's Law and the use of Young's Modulus.