Range Report - 1891 Carcano (1896)

[jmoore]

I've shot them as well in gain twist barrels. No dramas. I don't think gain twist is the issue.

[Parashooter]

If I remember Emary's article accurately, he tested loads in gain-twist barrels as well as the constant-twist M41 referenced on the data sheet. From an engineering perspective, the force required to enlarge the engraved area as a bullet progresses down a gain-twist barrel is a minor factor considering how little additional metal must be displaced and how much momentum the bullet has acquired before the twist sharpens significantly.

The pressure anomalies with reduced loads apparently occur as the bullet reaches the end of the fairly long freebore in the Carcano throat. When there is sufficient pressure and momentum at this point to fully engrave the bullet, regardless of twist pattern, the pressure curve is normal.

[RBruce]

Since my Model 1891 made in 1896 has the gain twist rifling, I guess I'll stick with the .264 bullets - anyone need some .268s?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Just where exactly does it say this data is not to be used in gain twist barrels?

Wrong perspective! It says explicitly that it was for the M41. It does not have to say what it is not for. You are making an assumption if you presume that it can be used for other models. The author of the data sheet bears no responsibility for this assumption. Please read the disclaimer printed at the top right of the sheet. It is there as a warning. If it works for you, fine, if not, the author is not responsible. "Gain twist barrels" would include the 6.5 conversion of the 1870 Vetterli, known to the Italians as "Il Terribile". Would you want to feed one of those with modern loads?

Patrick

P.S. On Saturday I test-fired an old revolver for which I had no satisfactory load data. Reading around and comparing what meagre information was available, I started with a load that was so soft that the bullet stuck in the bore. But not in the forcing cone, as one might expect. It stuck in the muzzle, peeping out a millimeter or so! I wish I had had a camera, but there were several amused witnesses. At least I now know that this revolver does not have a wide muzzle. And heavier loads (I had, of course, prepared a series) performed well.

[Patrick Chadwick]

If I remember Emary's article accurately, he tested loads in gain-twist barrels as well as the constant-twist M41 referenced on the data sheet.

I do not wish to tread on anyone's toes, and you may well be right with regard to the forces, but the article by David Emary only gives load info for an M91/41 in 6.5mm (constant twist) and an M38 cavalry model in 7.35mm (also constant twist). I can find no mention of loads for any gain-twist models, and a definite warning against trying the .268" bullets in the Vetterli conversion. The article is lengthy and includes info from other sources, but as far as I can tell (and it's late here, so I may have missed something), the only types tested by David Emary were the M91/41 and the M38.


Patrick

[vintage hunter]

No Patrick it does not explictly say it is for the M41 only, it simply states the M41 just happened to be the rifle chosen for final testing. IF this data was intended soley for use in just one model it should and most certainly would say so in bold print. Imagine, in this lawsuit happy world, the liabilities a company would face by not making such knowledge known to the end users. As for the disclaimer, it's found in all loading munuals I've ever seen, pretty much word for word. To hopefully solve any doubts about the subject I phoned Hornady(800-338-3220) and asked whether or not this data and .268'' bullets would be safe to use in gain twist barrels. The technician I spoke with(Brad) said there would be no problems with using this bullet/data combination in ANY CARCANO(Vetterli's are not Carcano's) w/gain twist barrels providing the rifle is in good condition and the exact components shown were used with exception to the brass where PRVI cases could safely be substituted for the Norma's. What about all other load data? Theres only one rifle shown as the test platform, does that mean 8x57 data developed in a K98k is unsafe for use in any other variant of M98 Mauser or in modern sporting rifles of the same caliber?

[jmoore]

with exception to the brass where PRVI cases could safely be substituted for the Norma's.

IIRC, the Prvi cases are what's listed in the published data.

[Patrick Chadwick]

No Patrick it does not explictly say it is for the M41 only,

Please read what I wrote.

It says explicitly that it was for the M41.

I did not write "...for the M41 only".
You are making an assumption again. That is one reason for a manufacturer or author to include a disclaimer in such a text. M41 is what it says on the handwritten data sheet. Not "M41 only". Not "Carcano rifles". Not "gain twist barrels". Just M41. And in the article by David Emary it says "M91/41", which is the designation as used by the Italians for the same rifle.

[jmoore]

Aren't Carcanos fun? Very Italian. Always a spirited discussion.

[Patrick Chadwick]

As for the disclaimer, it's found in all loading munuals I've ever seen, pretty much word for word.

Because people tend to read into such sheets what they expect, not what is actually presented. As soon as the reader starts to interpret or make assumptions, he is venturing into territory that is excluded by the disclaimer.

I am not claiming that the (nominal) .268" bullets and the loads published in the handwritten data sheet (which does not appear to bear the name of David Emary) or the lengthy article which does bear his name will be dangerous, hazardous, fun, or the most accurate load ever derived. I am not making any claim about the applicability of the load at all.

As for

The technician I spoke with(Brad)

in

this lawsuit happy world,

if you had trouble with that load in any other Carcano, I suspect you would hear something on the lines of
"Reloading is always on the responsibility and risk of the user..."
"You must have misunderstood him..."
"Brad had no authority to make such a statement..."
"Brad who?"