Marine scout sniper book "40 Thieves in Saipan"

[Jim Tarleton]

All Marine scout snipers are volunteers and have been since day one in WWI. MOS 8541 (now MOS 0317 I believe) is a secondary MOS, not a primary assigned MOS like the MOS assigned to you out of Boot Camp. Also, you have seen Division "diaries" that list Marines by MOS? They don't even do that on a company level (rosters). Marines are listed by name, rank, and serial number with a notation of WIA, KIA, or UA if applicable, with a notation if transferred.

Your 95 yr old friend had to have some rank before he volunteered as a SS. If you look at the USMC description of a SS, it is all about an individual capable of placing accurate long range fire to disrupt enemy actions, and if my memory serves me correctly, doesn't even mention the scouting side of the duties. If you read presentations from guys like Eric England (98 CK), Carlos Hathcock (93 CK), and McElhinney (103 CK). not one of them ever mentions scouting duties at all.

There were 3 sniper schools in WWII, Camp Pendleton, Camp Lejeune, and Quantico. When you say New River, I assume you are referring to Stoney Point. Technically, New River is an Air Station. In WWII, Eric England commanded Stoney Point for a couple of years before he went to the Pacific. I suspect Eric England knew very little about scouting. Recruits were not sent to sniper school if they were the best shots in the company. There was a list of qualifications that had to be met, and no one went to sniper school straight out of Boot Training. But...of those that volunteered, being a great shot was obviously the best way to get into the school. As for your statement, "He was like most snipers who never saw a scoped M1903 after he left Sniper School", I cannot comprehend how you would know that. It is complete BS.

I think your posts do a disservice to the brave men who worked their butts off doing a very dangerous job. By the way, how did you get a living Marine's service records?

[Jim Tarleton]

I did a bit of research, and I must admit I was surprised to discover that the TO&E allowed for company messengers in the D, E, and F Series of the Battle Order. That covers WWII and Vietnam. I also discovered that, on the company level, recon was performed by two privates in the rifle squads. The Sniper Platoon was attached to Regimental HQ (as it was in WWI). We had the same number of snipers per regiment from the beginning of WWI through RVN. The F Series covered the last year of WWII through RVN.

Your 95 yr old legend would have been listed as a messenger or a sniper, but not both. Once he earned his MOS 8541, he would be a sniper. The fact that he claimed to be a messenger makes his story a bit suspect.

[cplstevennorton]

Jim,

Since we last talked, I have found substantial new amounts of research from National Archive Locations.

There is a lot that has changed.

What I am saying is correct. I have the actual unpublished Headquarters Marine documents and service record books.

[Jim Tarleton]

History does not change, only our perception of it changes.

There is a reason the daily roster is done on a company level. A couple of clerks can wade through 300 or so data points and still get the record out in a timely basis, but there were 15,000 men in a division. It would be physically impossible to gather data on 15,000 men and get it out to HQ in a single day. That just did not happen.

Division diaries are postbellum. Those writing them generally do not have access to individual's MOS's. So how did you verify the old man's MOS's?

That "Documents, I got documents" routine is getting a bit old.

[cplstevennorton]

Jim,

By pulling his Service Record book. This info is even available online if you know where to look.

[cplstevennorton]

All Marine scout snipers are volunteers and have been since day one in WWI. MOS 8541 (now MOS 0317 I believe) is a secondary MOS, not a primary assigned MOS like the MOS assigned to you out of Boot Camp. Also, you have seen Division "diaries" that list Marines by MOS? They don't even do that on a company level (rosters). Marines are listed by name, rank, and serial number with a notation of WIA, KIA, or UA if applicable, with a notation if transferred.

Your 95 yr old friend had to have some rank before he volunteered as a SS. If you look at the USMC description of a SS, it is all about an individual capable of placing accurate long range fire to disrupt enemy actions, and if my memory serves me correctly, doesn't even mention the scouting side of the duties. If you read presentations from guys like Eric England (98 CK), Carlos Hathcock (93 CK), and McElhinney (103 CK). not one of them ever mentions scouting duties at all.

There were 3 sniper schools in WWII, Camp Pendleton, Camp Lejeune, and Quantico. When you say New River, I assume you are referring to Stoney Point. Technically, New River is an Air Station. In WWII, Eric England commanded Stoney Point for a couple of years before he went to the Pacific. I suspect Eric England knew very little about scouting. Recruits were not sent to sniper school if they were the best shots in the company. There was a list of qualifications that had to be met, and no one went to sniper school straight out of Boot Training. But...of those that volunteered, being a great shot was obviously the best way to get into the school. As for your statement, "He was like most snipers who never saw a scoped M1903 after he left Sniper School", I cannot comprehend how you would know that. It is complete BS.

I think your posts do a disservice to the brave men who worked their butts off doing a very dangerous job. By the way, how did you get a living Marine's service records?

Jim,

You are saying a lot of info here, but unfortunately you are confusing a lot of data. You are sort of taking different eras of the Marine Scout Sniper program and combining them into one confused mash up. Otherwise you are not breaking down each era into the correct individual era, which it was. Each war was completely different for the program. Actually it changed every few months during the wars.

Even the most basic info you are stating above I'm sorry to say is not correct. Such as you saying the MOS numbers for a Scout Sniper in WWII. A WWII Marine Scout Sniper was not a MOS 8541.

They were a MOS 761.

The rest of the info on how the program worked, how records were kept, how data is listed, I'm sorry to say nearly everything you stated above is just not correct.

There are substantial new amounts of research available. Even if someone can't get to the Archives, Andrew, Tim, and myself have posted thousands of documents online since you have been gone and you can find many with a simple google search.

[Jim Tarleton]

I got my information from the Marine Corps. Where did you get yours? And I did break down the information by era as anyone who checks will discover. As for you retrieving a living Marine's service record, anyone who has ever tried knows that is BS. Anyone reading this can check the website for themselves. Before you go too far guys, the Marines used the same MOS Codes as did the Army until halfway through 1945. That "Sniper" MOS 761 he's throwing against the wall is the 1945 Army code for "Scout" - not "Sniper".

U.S. Marine Rifle Company (1944-1945) (The Battle Order didn't change from 1944 through RVN)

Marine Corps MOS List | MOSDb

Everyone else is wrong but you, because you have "documents". What I posted came directly from the Marine Corps website. If you have any document that refutes what they say, let's see it.

You are playing to the crowd now. That ploy might work with the younger guys, but the older guys know better. OK, I stand by every word I posted. If you have ANY document that proves me wrong, throw it out there for all to see.

[cplstevennorton]

I got my information from the Marine Corps. Where did you get yours? And I did break down the information by era as anyone who checks will discover. As for you retrieving a living Marine's service record, anyone who has ever tried knows that is BS. Anyone reading this can check the website for themselves. Before you go too far guys, the Marines used the same MOS Codes as did the Army until halfway through 1945. That "Sniper" MOS 761 he's throwing against the wall is the 1945 Army code for "Scout" - not "Sniper".

U.S. Marine Rifle Company (1944-1945) (The Battle Order didn't change from 1944 through RVN)

Marine Corps MOS List | MOSDb

Everyone else is wrong but you, because you have "documents". What I posted came directly from the Marine Corps website. If you have any document that refutes what they say, let's see it.

You are playing to the crowd now. That ploy might work with the younger guys, but the older guys know better. OK, I stand by every word I posted. If you have ANY document that proves me wrong, throw it out there for all to see.

Jim again you are confusing the Marine Corps Eras and combining them into one big confused mesh. The MOS info you are posting is current, not what it was back in WWII. On the chart you just posted an Infantry Rifleman is a 0311. Back in WWII it was a 745. A Machine Gunner today is a 0331, back in WWII it was a 746.

I don't need to post the docs on this,because this is very basic info that is easily accessible and very widely known by even entry level Marine Researchers.

USMC MOS Codes, WWII Era - The Military Yearbook Project


As far as Service Record books again you are not correct. They do not go by if the Marine is living, they go by the year they served. Any Marines personal records are easily accessible as long as he served by the mid 50's. You just have to walk into St Louis and use a simple pull card with the name and service number. Anything after the mid 50's is still accessible it just requires more paperwork and you have to File a Freedom of info request to be able to view it.

As I said Jim, there is a substantial amount of new info out there because everything has changed.

Good luck in your research.

[Jim Tarleton]

Jim you are just confirming what I am saying. You're confusing all the Marine Corps Eras and combinging them into one big confused mesh. The MOS info you are posting is current, not what it was back in WWII. On the chart you just posted an Infantry Rifleman is a 0311. Back in WWII it was a 745. A Machine Gunner today is a 0331, back in WWII it was a 746.

Nice try. It is you who is confused. You erroneously claimed MOS 761 was the WWII USMC MOS for a sniper. When I pointed out your obvious error, you are avoiding confronting your DA error by babbling about riflemen MOS, etc. What happened? Were you surprised I would know the Marines used Army MOS's in early war years? Or were you just confused?

I don't even need to post the docs on this, because anyone who understands even the basics of WWII Marine Corps already knows this. This info is also readily available online. You can literally google "WWII MArine MOS" and you find master lists of this. This info is correct, I have the docs that back it up.

Does that mean you don't even understand the basics of WWII Marine Corps? At the least, you admit it! The reason you don't post any documents is that you have no document that refutes anything I posted.

As far as Service Record books again you are not correct. They do not go by if the Marine is living, they go by the year they served. Any Marines personal records are easily accessible as long as he served by the mid 50's. You just have to walk into St Louis and use a simple pull card with the name and service number. Anything after the mid 50's is still accessible it just requires more paperwork and you have to File a Freedom of info request.

I invite anyone reading this to try to retrieve the service records of a living Marine not related to you. Find out for yourself.

As I said Jim, everything has changed. There is a substantial amount of new info out there for you to research. Good luck.

You are a data collector. You are no researcher. There is a huge difference between the two. Life is change, but the truth of history never changes.

[cplstevennorton]

Anyone who wants to see what MOS 761 is, they can just click on the link I posted above and scroll down till you find it. A 761 is a Infantry Scout Sniper.

If anyone wants to pull ANY Marine service records up to the mid 50s and can't travel to St Louis, there are several researchers who will pull them for you, for a fee.

It's usually $50 to a $100 for a researcher to pull and copy the file for you. But the files are usually 30 to 50 pages or more. You do not need to be a relative to pull these files.

You can request a copy for free online if you are a relative but they usually do a horrible job finding and copying the files. So I still recommend to have them pulled by a researcher even though it will cost you money and the other way is free. This is very much a case where you get what you pay for.

For researchers at St Louis I highly recommend Lori at Redbird Research. She pulls records for every Marine Researcher I know and she usually charges about half of the competitors. She does a very thorough job and is a great person as well.