Uk F4 Phantoms being tested on HMS Eagle 1969

[mrclark303]

I'm not so sure about cats and traps, they are a great option for a country like the US, who can afford to have a lot of fleet carriers and multiple air wings cycling in and out of operations and training.

It's a real problem if you only have a few squadrons of fast jets and a couple of carriers.

Keeping aircrew current and carrier qualified is nightmare, the pressure on the handful of qualified aircrew and there families would be enormous, probably enough for very high turnover and subsequently more strain on training.

The B model F35 isn't as capable as the A or C sure, but it's a quantum leap up from Harrier and once it's been fully debugged, it will serve us well.

The flexibility of our big deck STOVOL carriers, with the ease of getting new pilots Carrier qualified and lower costs of operation all round, is a very good fit for the UK.

'If' they are properly funded to operate as intended, with four front line Lightening squadrons etc. A buy of the COD variant of the V22 for COD and AAR would be a massive force multiplier and close the gap between CTOL and STOVOL carriers.

If we were ever able to put 36 fully supported jets on board a fully supported carrier (looking remote) they would be a highly visible and capable deterrent.

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[Gil Boyd]

Ah...........it won't be long John, they'll be building a creche on board for the young families and their kids so there's no upset, they could also lend a hand as they are so short of crew anyway!!
Lord Horatio Nelson will be turning in his grave........."What women onboard warships bah"

[GeeRam]

I'm not so sure about cats and traps, they are a great option for a country like the US, who can afford to have a lot of fleet carriers and multiple air wings cycling in and out of operations and training.

It's a real problem if you only have a few squadrons of fast jets and a couple of carriers.

Keeping aircrew current and carrier qualified is nightmare, the pressure on the handful of qualified aircrew and there families would be enormous, probably enough for very high turnover and subsequently more strain on training.

We managed for nearly a decade with just the one carrier after Eagle was decommisioned.
And the French are managing it as well with just one, and doing cat n trap as well, and they developed their own fighter to fly off of it...! and that's why I think we've missed a trick by jumping into bed with the USMC rather than shared carrier support with an European ally.
Are we really going to do USMC style expedition warfare?

'If' they are properly funded to operate as intended, with four front line Lightening squadrons etc. A buy of the COD variant of the V22 for COD and AAR would be a massive force multiplier and close the gap between CTOL and STOVOL carriers.

We are never going to buy V22 for the UK........have you seen the costs of those things......!
The cost per per flying hour is even more than a F-22 Raptor.....!!
Only stuff like the C5 Galaxy, B52, B1B etc cost more per flying hour than a V22...!!

[mrclark303]

We managed for nearly a decade with just the one carrier after Eagle was decommisioned.
And the French are managing it as well with just one, and doing cat n trap as well, and they developed their own fighter to fly off of it...! and that's why I think we've missed a trick by jumping into bed with the USMC rather than shared carrier support with an European ally.
Are we really going to do USMC style expedition warfare?



We are never going to buy V22 for the UK........have you seen the costs of those things......!
The cost per per flying hour is even more than a F-22 Raptor.....!!
Only stuff like the C5 Galaxy, B52, B1B etc cost more per flying hour than a V22...!!

Well yes, just my rose tinted glasses version of what's possible if properly funded...

You can't really compare the fleet air arm of the 1970's with today, they spent the last 10 years of fast jet carriers operations with the best of the best, the stripped out core of the Fleet air arms finest, supported by excellent pilots on secondment from the RAF.

The French, I hear fro friends, are struggling to maintain carrier aviation with high turn over of pilots, condensed into a small corps of carrier qualified personnel.

Just my opinion, but it's not a good fit for a small Navy.

If the government want properly funded Carrier Strike, then something else will have to go to free up funding and personnel, Royal Marines full spectrum capability (Albion and Bulwark specifically), with a reduction to a dedicated raiding force and Special forces support.

Then we have Dreadnought coming along sucking up the funds too with each passing year....

Something has to give!

[GeeRam]

The French, I hear fro friends, are struggling to maintain carrier aviation with high turn over of pilots, condensed into a small corps of carrier qualified personnel.

Just my opinion, but it's not a good fit for a small Navy.

If the government want properly funded Carrier Strike, then something else will have to go to free up funding and personnel, Royal Marines full spectrum capability (Albion and Bulwark specifically), with a reduction to a dedicated raiding force and Special forces support.

But they were due to go anyway.....as part of the cost saving to fund the carriers, a decision that was reversed 18 months ago by DefSec.......but, as you say, that may well get reversed back again, especially with the recent announcement about the RM's new uniform and new Commando role, closer to the WW2 roots of the Commando's.

Which then begs the question, what the hell do we need the carriers for now, as they were there for amphib assault support?

As you say about the French, its hard doing it properly, unless you fund it properly.
Which is why in my view we shouldn't have built the carriers, as we just won't fund it properly. If you do it, do it properly to allow maximum cross-decking with others, and that means cat n trap....with stand off capability, and organic AAR and AEW capability. Even the USN are now struggling with the decision to retire the Tomcat early as the Super Hornet and F-35C don't have the long range fleet protection ability that the F-14 was designed to offer, and that means the carriers have to be closer to the risk zone. Ours will be even closer.....as we can only cross deck with the USMC, and 20 years after that Blair/Bush sponsored inflexible decision, we are living in a different world.

Sadly I fear these two carriers may turn out to be the most expensive white elephants in MOD history.