Ishapore 2A1 1967

[Edward Horton]

To this day the British military uses oiled proof rounds to test military small arms, the civilian European CIP and American SAAMI both use dry non-oiled proof cartridges for proof testing. The oiled military proof test cartridge subjects the bolt and receiver to the worst possible conditions a rifle can be subjected to under combat conditions or double the force applied by a dry cartridge.

In plain english even if the Ishapore 2A1 was proofed with a dry proof cartridge it still passed the proof testing any American or European civilian hunting rifle was ever subjected to.

If you want the honest truth civilian factory .308 ammunition is loaded to lower pressures than military ammunition. The standard 7.62 NATO ammunition is loaded to 50,000 CUP and the M118 Special Ball is loaded to the same rated pressure as the .308 at 52,000 CUP. In simple language there is less than 2,000 PSI difference in “rated” chamber pressure between the .308 and 7.62 NATO which is insignificant.

Why do I say 2,000 PSI is insignificant, please look below at the chamber pressure variations during pressure testing of 30-06 factory loaded ammunition. (Extreme variation under “PRESSURE” is 10,100 CUP or PSI)

The 30-06 ammunition below has 10,000 PSI difference between the highest and lowest cartridges fired during testing.



Below is reloading data from 1968 before the transducer method was used for measuring chamber pressure, all pressures are in CUP or copper units pressure. Pleases notice you do NOT see any pressures in the 60,000 PSI range. (Please notice the reloading manual says both .308 and 7.62 in the heading)





Below are the normal chamber pressures and proof testing pressures for the .308 and 7.62.



Pay close attention to the max load data for the .308 Winchester and the 168 grain bullet with IMR-4895 powder, 42.5 grains at 51,200 CUP.



Below is from the U.S. Army, please notice the load is 42 grains of IMR-4895 or half a grain "LESS" than the max load for the .308 above and the chamber pressure is 50,000 CUP or 1,200 psi less the the .308.



Below is my 2A1, the head space is just under field max for the M14 and it has .010 head gap clearance. (a .303 Enfield could have as much as .016 at .074 max head space setting)



I shoot both military 7.62 and commercial .308 ammunition without any problems in my 2A1

Below is the most accurate information on the .308 and 7.62 you will find anywhere.

The Truth About 308 Win and 762 NATO

http://home.comcast.net/~ehorton/The...762%20NATO.pdf

Is it safe to shoot 308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO?
What about 7.62 in a 308?
By Jim Bullock

http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alan de Enfield]

Interesting questions about the 2A1, I just picked up a 1968 made Carbine conversion in beautiful condition, loaded up some ammo for it but have yet to shoot it. I have seen a number of recommendations of having it checked out for head spacing, but I also have seen some conversations about variations of the gauges between 308 and the NATO round. Has there been a NATO standard established and are gauges available?

I have had to sand bag a rifle down in the past and used a string to pull the trigger, that was the method I used on my 1876 Martini.

The 308 & the 7.62 ROUND are to all intents and purposes identical, the CHAMBERS differ read this article :

http://home.comcast.net/~ehorton/The...762%20NATO.pdf

[jonnyc]

Yeah...sanity!!!
I am so sick of this question...oft repeated on the many sites I frequent.

[Edward Horton]

Yeah...sanity!!!
I am so sick of this question...oft repeated on the many sites I frequent.

sanity!!!

Did our 30-06 M1917 Enfield's and 03 Springfield's blow up when we shot commercial 30-06 ammunition in them............NO

This myth started because people do not understand that the older 50,000 CUP (Copper units pressure method) is equal to the newer 60,000 PSI (transducer method)

Will your tires blow up if the manual in the glove box calls for 32 PSI and you put 220 kPa in them?

[Peter Laidler]

What's strange is thet the roll-engraved RFI logo and Ashok differ considerably between AD-E's rifle and Krinko's.

I wouldn't mind betting that some of these latecomers have been linished clean. I wonder if a variation on the magnaflux test would highlight any abnormality in the steel structure to show previous distortion..............

[Edward Horton]

What's strange is thet the roll-engraved RFI logo and Ashok differ considerably between AD-E's rifle and Krinko's.

I wouldn't mind betting that some of these latecomers have been linished clean. I wonder if a variation on the magnaflux test would highlight any abnormality in the steel structure to show previous distortion..............

Mr. Laidler

Are you insinuating that Alan de Enfield (AD-E) is............fruity?

"An ade is a beverage made from diluted fruit juice and sweetener, sometimes with carbonated water. An ade is generally a combination of fruit juice, sugar and water"

Ade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I consider Alan de Enfield's and your postings here in the U.S. as foreign aid or reverse lend lease information
(even though my spies got hold of all your British manuals)

[Pattern14]

Alan de Enfield,
The post by Peter Laidler forced me into the gun safe to take a look at my Ishapore stamps.
The Ashoka on your picture of your No1 Mk 3 butt socket looks squat and crudely stamped. The one on my Rifle 7.62mm 2A1 1967 is more elongated and much more detailed. Apparently, Indian stamps were not too consistant which surprises me since I thought these rifles were all produced at Ishapore Rifle Factory outside Calcutta and would have had a consistant "official" Ashoka stamp even though the dates of your's and my rifle are 19 years apart.

regards, George

[Alan de Enfield]

Alan de Enfield,
The post by Peter Laidler forced me into the gun safe to take a look at my Ishapore stamps.
The Ashoka on your picture of your No1 Mk 3 butt socket looks squat and crudely stamped. The one on my Rifle 7.62mm 2A1 1967 is more elongated and much more detailed. Apparently, Indian stamps were not too consistant which surprises me since I thought these rifles were all produced at Ishapore Rifle Factory outside Calcutta and would have had a consistant "official" Ashoka stamp even though the dates of your's and my rifle are 19 years apart.

regards, George

Unfortunately its not my rifle, the owner was posting on another forum about his 'late' 303 Ishapore and I asked him if I could keep & use the photo as it was the latest one I'd seen.

Just a guess, but maybe the 2A production line got 'new' stamps whilst the old 303 production line got the 'old, worn out' stamps.

[jonnyc]

Hey Ed, I was agreeing with you!

[Edward Horton]

Hey Ed, I was agreeing with you!

I know, my message was for all the other readers to keep the insanity from spreading