Buy the rifle not the story!!!!!

[Peter Laidler]

Talking of delelict things, I did the exact opposite. Not comparing like with like, but I purchased a totally rusted out fit for scrap 1969 Mini Cooper in 1983. Rebuilt it to new standard - eventually - over a 3 year period. But the notion that I would ever use cad plated nuts and bolts, cellulose paint or use anything else that would rot, tarnish or rust out in true BMC/Leyland fashion never even entered my head. All stainless steel nuts and bolts, same with the bracketry........, all stainless made new with modern paint too. As for the old Lucas (=Loads of Unconnected Crap And Solder) AC 'prince of darkness' alternator. Stripped and assemled in old casing but with modern guts machined to fit. Ain't original but it's already lasted longer than the original car!

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Patrick Chadwick]

OK, now it's my turn for a rant!

I shoot old rifles. Some of them very old. Some of them look like wrecks - on the outside. The insides are a different matter! Many would be sneered at by collectors. But they all work. I invest some time and trouble to achieve this, and share the methods with people on these forums.

If part is defective, I will repair it or (rarely) replace it with an original part. Basically, I will carry out what I regard as proper maintenance (like oiling a dry stock). But not pretty it up to increase it's decorative value. The aim is to keep the gun functioning as a gun, not as antique decoration.

Swapping out properly functioning parts merely to achieve an imagined "correctness" is IMHO falsification. Take a close look at the M1 (carbine and Garand) forums to see how the "numbers game" can become obsessive. Thanks to the efforts of the "matchmakers" there must be a higher percentage of "all original and correct" rifles around now than there were when they were in service use, as the matchmakers busy themselves to undo the work of Peter Laidler and his colleagues around the world.

Force-matching numbers on replaced parts is totally non-functional, and has the character of forgery, as it is the falsification of documentary evidence (the number). There is no excuse for this whatsoever.

I am not a collector. I am not running a museum. I am not saving them for posterity. Posterity is a person I am never going to meet, and will have to look after himself. But posterity will reap the advantage of the work I have done in making and keeping these old bangers operational, instead of just hoarding them.

Collectors who, with misplaced pride, write "I have just acquired my 99th 4T (or whatever)" are not doing anything useful for the shooting community. They are, again IMHO, being dogs in the manger and preventing 98 other people from being able to shoot one of these rifles.

And then they have the temerity to complain that prices are rising - when they themselves are the price drivers!

Sorry collectors, I know this is unfair to some of you who are serious students of the material, and hereby apologize to those who feel unjustly criticized. But all too many appear to be hoarders. And this is merely the opinion of a serious shooter, so you can ignore it!

[SpikeDD]

Collectors who, with misplaced pride, write "I have just acquired my 99th 4T (or whatever)" are not doing anything useful for the shooting community. They are, again IMHO, being dogs in the manger and preventing 98 other people from being able to shoot one of these rifles.

And then they have the temerity to complain that prices are rising - when they themselves are the price drivers!

Sorry collectors, I know this is unfair to some of you who are serious students of the material, and hereby apologize to those who feel unjustly criticized. But all too many appear to be hoarders. And this is merely the opinion of a serious shooter, so you can ignore it!

Patrick, everything above this bit is spot on and I agree. To the above part quoted, I do not take offense. I will say though, if I have to replace a part, or, during a sporter restoration I have the choice of parts sitting in front of me in a draw....I'm going with the correctly "marked" one. If I don't have the choice, then so be it, it gets what I have on hand. Apart from re-numbering serial numbered parts, to include the un-fitted forestock, who cares if someone changes out a rusty or pitted band, trigger guard, etc...? If you own a Savage rifle with a glossy black F48 marked middle band and you decide to change it out for a Savage marked one, you would be wrong? How do you know the shop owner didn't swipe the original band for himself ? Or, a friend? No one could know that.

I understand the implied impact that's trying to be expressed here and to a degree... I agree with it. I wouldn't know where to draw the lines or rules but I imagine that can be worked out. I understand you are a shooter and accept the fact that you don't understand the idea of collecting. I think the word "hoarding" gives that away Does it matter if someone is a serious student of the subject or merely enjoys the collecting aspect of a given interest in order to have a large collection ? I think not, collecting rifles is the same as any other thing you can possibly think of that can be collected. A degree of care and maintenance is required for all collectibles and I know the same degree of fake and forgery goes along with it all. I think the first thing that has to between collectors and shooters is a better mutual respect and understanding.

[Paul S.]

Well said Patrick.

[Robert303]

I too get rather angry with hoarders. If you have 5 or six different No 4Ts and can use them to illustrate the development of the rifle or any other differences that's fine but if they are otherwise basically the same then I agree it's just hoarding. Don't get me started on a certain gent who has too much money and just buys up Fosberrys so that he has the 'Largest Collection'. As to a 'Restored Standard' it's a lovely idea but will not happen when there is desire for something. The reason, because desire = money. Money = rogues. One just has to look at the Classic Car market over the last 40 or so years. Mark II Jaguars where the only Jag parts were the engine and VIN plates the rest being Daimler. A Multi million pound Bentley that became a multi million court case. Right through to fake cardboard boxes for dinky toys. This did lead to some of the auction houses and the FIA getting some protocols sorted out but that in itself pushed costs up. We could ask Capt Laidler and a few others to write the guidelines for restored / repaired rifles but unless you have someone who can verify or police the market you cannot enforce it. What you have to do is A) Not join in the Bright and Shiny Market B) Avoid the Bullshit Market C) Learn as much as possible from RELIABLE sources and most importantly d) Teach newcomers how to avoid A) and B) and who to trust when doing C).

[Homer]

Don't worry gents, when these so called hoarders die, there'll be plenty for everyone.

[Robert303]

Unfortunately the B-----d is a lot younger than me

[enfield303t]

As someone with a few Lee Enfields I have no problem with enthusiasts having multiples of any gun including T's. I have worked hard to find some and worked hard to be able to buy what I have. I in no way consider myself to be a hoarder, have always LOVED Lee Enfields and will continue to buy them when one I want is available.

I understand the thought of someone having too many in some peoples minds however I have had a few friends with unbelievable collections of guns/militaria. Both were good people and never overpaid for items, they just worked diligently finding what they wanted.

I am old, my son who is probably a more dedicated gun nut than I am gets all of them. His decision on what to do with them will not be my concern...LOL

[Patrick Chadwick]

David, our positions are not as different as you might think. Of course, "if I have to replace a part, or, during a sporter restoration I have the choice of parts sitting in front of me in a draw....I'm going with the correctly "marked" one. If I don't have the choice, then so be it, it gets what I have on hand." BUT to renumber that part is to falsify it. And functionally unnecessary. Ergo faking.

"If you own a Savage rifle with a glossy black F48 marked middle band and you decide to change it out for a Savage marked one, you would be wrong? How do you know the shop owner didn't swipe the original band for himself ? Or, a friend? No one could know that."

Of course no one can know. And undoing Bubba's work is perfectly legitimate. The Enfield No.8 that I recently used in a BR50 competition (beating about 100k-worth of modern high-tech in the process) was a sporterized example when I got it, already drilled and tapped for a scope. I fitted it out with original parts, and it is now a top-class rifle. But I am not pretending that it came thus from the factory.

My other No.8 (oops, what have I been writing about multiple copies!?!) is fitted with a No.4 butt-stock. It looks great, but I was worried that this was a bit of Bubba's work. Fortunately, Peter Laidler assured me that No.8s were indeed occasionally fitted out in this manner, so I have left it as it was when I got it, as there is no functional need to change it, and use it for shooting with the original sights. But it is a perfect example of the "arsenal? armorer? Bubba?" dilemma when confronted with obviously non ex-factory parts. Please note non ex-factory, not non-original. The butt is an original part, but did not leave the factory on that rifle.

So I think I do understand collecting. And the tendency to hoard. Serious collectors have made major contributions to our knowledge in the form of books and forum contributions. But I could show you a collection in a castle that contains multiple copies of the same types - and it is all suffering from rust, as the owner appears to be unable to care for it all. That really is disappointing. As to use of the word "hoarders", I stick by that. Acquiring multiple copies of the same type is hoarding, but the hoarders want to dignify their activity as collecting, and in this way are downgrading serious collecting.

So what is serious collecting? It would be interesting to hear a few viewpoints on that!

[5thBatt]

So I think I do understand collecting.
So what is serious collecting?

I would class myself as a "serious collector" but i cannot answer the question as i do not know the actual answer, i do know it's a forever evolving pursuit & it can be the smallest of details that will separate 2 of the "same type"