Italian Carcano Bayonet

[Aragorn243]

I picked up a carcano bayonet off ebay that came yesterday. Can't seem to find much information on these at all. Condition is fair, it appears to have been arsenal refinished at some point. The blade has been blued but also shows signs of earlier pitting. It's stamped RB389 on the cross guard and has an R superimposed over a C on the blade. Has three small letters on the flat of the cross guard the first which I can't make out, the second and third are P and S. It has one other mark on the top of the handle metal that I can't make out.

I'm just a casual collector trying to get one representative piece from each nation during the wars but would like to know a little of the history behind them. What little I could find on this seems to indicate that it is of WWI vintage due to the cross guard markings

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I picked up a carcano bayonet

Sorry Aragorn, but that is like saying "I have an Enfield bayonet" - there is just not enough information for identification. Pics are needed!

[browningautorifle]

You could cross reference your bayonet with pics from Carl Smith's site BAyonet Collection Presentation.

[Aragorn243]

Sorry, I know what it is. It's an M1891, common version. I'm just curious about whether the markings identify where it was made. I can't find any sites that list makers marks.

[Patrick Chadwick]

You may be misreading the markings. Please post pictures!

[COLOR="Silver"]

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[Aragorn243]

Photos:

[gew8805]

The marking on the crossguard is probably the serial number of the rifle it was originally issued with, however it could also be a regimental marking. The mark on the ricasso is the manufacturer but I have not been able to locate the one shown. A great site for information on the Carcano rifle and it's variations, markings and accoutrements is the Italian language "Il 91". Here is a link, hopefully it will be shown with the Google translation to English:

Google Translate

Click on the blue letters and it will take you in. For in index to everything else on the site, including "Baionette" section, also translated, see the left hand column.

[Aragorn243]

Thanks for the link, very informative but unfortunately doesn't show the makers mark of the one that I have.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Ok, now we are getting somewhere!

Aragorn, please position your baxonet with the hilt up and the blade down.
Now take another look at the marking on the ricasso:
That looks like an R superimposed, and slightly above a C. This is the monogram for the manufacturer ROCCA. CORRECTION Renato Castelli, not Rocca, see later posting!ROCCA made M91 bayonets in WWII for use with the M91/41

On the crosspiece, beteween the muzzle ring and the grip, we see a clear PS.
This is a stamp from the component supplier PS (full name unknown), also known as a supplier of parts in WWII, in particular bayonets, up to 1942.
The mark in front of that bothers me. It could be a worn or badly struck O (letter) or 0 (number). Either way, it lines up so badly with the PS, that I doubt it is a part of the PS stamp. Is thare any trace of further numbers in front of that - it could be the remains of a year stamp "1940".


The M91 bayonet was produced in quantity from 1940 on, and used both for the M91 and the M91/41. Bring it round to my place, and we'll see if it fits on "Roma". OK, not a realistic suggestion! But maybe you will come across an M91/41 somewhere.

On the crosspiece, the RB 389** would have been a matrix number back in WWI, with the format A xxxx or AB xxxx as previously described in identifying a Carcano on the General Discussion forum. But in WWII this system seems to have broken down, certainly for accessories, and the marking on the cross piece was often a manufacturers name (batch?)/number stamp. It is not a regimental marking - the Italians did not use a regimental marking system.

From the pics, the blade seems to have been blued. If original, that would date it to 1941 or later. Later still, a parkerisation was used.

My best guess: an M91 bayonet from ROCCA, I]CORRECTION Renato Castelli, not Rocca, see later posting![/I]made in 1941 (possibly 1942) from parts from more than one supplier (i.e. whatever was in the bin), probably for use with an M91/41.

Other informed guesses welcomed!



P.S. **I have found Rxxx and RFxxxx, both recorded for FAT/Terni on M91/41s made in 1941. But no trace of a manufacturer RB. So maybe RB 389 is a matrix number after all.

P.P.S. For those who do not know what a matrix number is. The matrix number was the master record number for the rifle (and in this case, maybe for the bayonet issued with it) from a block assigned to a particular arsenal/factory. This was not a regimental number - it was supposed to be invariant, wherever the rifle ended up.

[Aragorn243]

Patrick,

I've seen ROCCA WWII produced bayonets for production year 1941, 1942 and 1943. They are marked ROCCA with the date stamp on the crosspiece with no mark on the ricasso. The bluing appears to be a post war refurbishment, whether this was post WWI or post WWII I have no idea. It does have old pitting in spots on the blade. RC being the monogram for ROCCA makes sense but it doesn't match known examples.