1891 Argentine sporter accuracy

[bsaumph]

I bought this rifle in a package deal looks pretty nice but I'm getting 3 inch groups at 50 yards. I have to believe these rifles shoot better than that. I'm using Prvi 150 and 180 gr ammo. Both shoot as bad. Is there a secret to making these things shoot or have I got a lemon? Thanx

Information

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[Calif-Steve]

Barrels have VERY long throats. You may have to re-load. Try seating the bullet "long". That should help.

[vintage hunter]

They usually will but there are lots of things that can have a negative effect on accuracy. Does it have a cut down military stock or an aftermarket sporter stock? Hows the fit, is the barrel binding against the forearm anywhere? Action screws tight? Is it scoped? Mounts/ rings tight? Military rifle actions were never meant to be scoped, the dimentions are inconsistant so in almost every case the base(s) requires fitting or it will stress the scope and drive you nuts trying to get it zero'd. Bullet dia. and or bore/crown condition may also be a factor, bore diameters vary. German barrels have bores that run from .310-.312, Argentine barrels from .312''-.314''. I have one in original trim that shoots 1 1/2'' 3 shot groups at 100yds with handloads using Hornady 150gr .312'' bullets. It did good almost as good with the PRVI stuff but I experienced a couple cases of hard bolt lift/sticky extraction so I quit using it it the 91, had no problems with it in the 1909. Sorry about all the Q's but I've been down this road many times with military sporters but when done right they can be very good shooters.

[bsaumph]

Looks to have aftermarket sport stock. Screws are tight. The barrel fit looks equally tight on each side so no uneven pressure I assume. Barrel is 22". No scope, it has a Williams peep mounted. I've didn't want to waste the money on reloading dies if it wont shoot well. Does anyone make neck size dies for this round? Thanx

[vintage hunter]

I agree theres no sense in wasting money on reloading supplies if the gun won't shoot accurately but unless the bores completely shot out they can usually be made to shoot quite well. Can you post some pics of your rifle? The stock should'nt touch the barrel at any point past the knox form with the possible exception of a piller bed at the tip. When a bullet passes through the bore it causes vibrations, if the barrel isn't free to vibrate the same way every shot accuracy will suffer. Some rifles shoot best with ''floating'' barrrels and some do better with a piller bed at the stock tip that puts slight upwards pressure on the barrel. If a dollar bill won't freely slide between stock and barrel from tip to knox form it isn't floated.

[bsaumph]

Barrel is tight from knox form to end of stock. I assume these rifles weren't piller bedded when issued. Just seems like with such a thick barrel and a tight stock, bedding wouldn't be an issue at 50 yds. Something to look into tho. The bore on this looks perfect.

[bsaumph]

I see what you mean about the long throat. I used my 303 britsh die to neck size a dummy round of the 7.65x53 then inserted a 174 grain bullet. When chambering the round with the cannelure sticking out 1/4" past the case mouth, I still don't get contact with the rifling. Also I'm using PPU ammo not Prvi. Not sure if that matters.

[Patrick Chadwick]

In my 1891 Argentine Engineers Carbine a 174 gn HPBT is nearly 1/2" clear of the case mouth before it touches the lands - your rifle will be similar. That means a lot of gas blow-by and a bullet being rammed into the transition cone with a skew and thus no kind of accuracy at all. You need a bullet with the longest cylindrical section you can find, and NO BOAT TAILS !!! A boat tail loses contact with the case neck very quickly, long before the base of the bullet has left the case.

Get yourself a pack of the Hornady Interlock #3130 174gn round-nose bullet and load them with the bullet seated so that the end of the case is on the crimp ring position (but do not crimp). Only neck-size the case (i.e. turn out the full-size die about 1/4 turn if you do not have a neck-sizer). Load with a starting load according to the reloading manual, and shoot again. The rifle should perform a lot better.

I know that the Hornadys are not cheap. An alternative would be to use cast lead bullets, as these usually have a good cylindrical section. But try the #3130 first, before worrying about bedding etc.


Patrick

[bsaumph]

Looks like a box of round noses and a lil bedding experimenting is in my future. Thanks for the input!

[Patrick Chadwick]

The shooting world seems to be overly concerned with HPBTs as a means of obtaining the lowest possible BC, wind drift, whatever. But this focus on external ballistics is a false aim if the internal ballistics are bad as a result..

Many of the types of old service rifles that we use were designed in the 1890s, for long round-nose bullets, maybe later using "spitzer" bullets, but certainly not boattails. The transition cones tend to be long (very long in the case of the 1891 Mausers) and so boattails are poorly guided into the start of the rifling, with a lot of gas blow-by before they are finally engraved. Some shooters report better results with cast lead bullets, and I guess that this is because these bullets experience some degree of obturation (a.k.a. "bump-up") and thus actually fit the bore better than jacketed bullets.


Patrick