Range Graduations for MkVI ammunition on British/Dominion WW1 scopes.....

[Surpmil]

Your picture does NOT show a Maxim silencer. This is also obvious by the name on top of the patent.

Attached pictures of my two Maxim silencers (one cutaway), both on M.1903 rifles.

If it is of any help, Austria also trialled silencers on the M.95 straight pull rifle in 1915.

These things happen sometimes Georg when one is in a hurry!


Looks like Mr. Moore of "Moore Silencer Co.", New York was having tests done with the US Army by 1911, where his "improved model" was rated as almost as good as the Maxim. The patent drawings I posted above are his improved model of which 100 were ordered by the US War Department in 1913.

The source for that is here and notice gentlemen that you can download your own copy as well as read online. Archive.org is well worth supporting by the way, if you don't want G--gle controlling everything.

Wouldn't surprise me if Moore silencers were purchased, if Maxims were not available in sufficient number.

[Madzi]

IN

Thinking about it, many UK units were 1st or 2nd Battalions (of whichever regiments), indicating they were regulars, who would presumably be near the front of the queue for the latest kit?? Only thinking out aloud here, but would that make sense?

Interesting point on the regulars, Roger. The Helles landings indeed seem to be regular troops, but those at Sulva seem to have been New Army and Yeomanry (including Scottish Horse and Lovats Scouts). Scottish Horse only received their web equipment in exchange for cavalry kit after trans-shipping in Malta, where I assume stores would have been held - would Malta have had older kit and ammo?). Interesting to see if there was a difference between relic cartridges recovered at Helles compared to Sulva.

[Roger Payne]

Interesting that Madzi. Yesterday I received a very heavy parcel in the post. It was the Official History of the Ministry of Munitions. Twelve weighty volumes (I gather there is also a 'secret' thirteenth volume that is not generally available, dealing with blockade busting & suchlike underhand dealings!). Volume 11 deals with optical munitions & firearms amongst other things. I have not yet had a chance to have a proper read, but earlier this afternoon I stumbled across a passage dealing with the conversion of MkVI sighted weapons for MkVII ammunition, & the author bemoans the fact the the Lowland Division had to embark (for the Gallipoli Peninsula) armed with long rifles still sighted for MkVI ammunition. It would seem for UK forces then that some units had rifles that were already converted & others didn't. I'm afraid I can't shed any light specifically on the stores held in Malta, but what you say sounds feasible to me.

A few other interesting snippets I've come across so far: at the outset of war both BSA & RSAF Enfield were producing short rifles sighted for both MkVII ammunition for British forces, & MkVI sighted short rifles for Dominion & Indian forces. Very rapidly (I think it was still during August 1914) both BSA & RSAF handed over their contracts for the MkVI sighted rifles to LSA. But even LSA only held these for a few weeks, before being instructed to produce exclusively MkVII sighted rifles. It also appears that up to the outbreak of war at least, only RSAF was effecting the conversions.

Read a few more pages! It appears that as the war progressed, RSAF, BSA & Westley Richards were all involved in the MkVI to MkVII sighting conversions.

[mattyboy82]

Wonderful info about the use of Mk VI ammo in the Gallipoli campaign. Thankyou! One point of contention I think I might add to. "Australia stopped providing troops with rifles for overseas service from September 1915". Not sure of that. A side project of mine I have been delving into is the allocation of Lithgow rifles to the AIF and I have enlisted the help of people at the Australian Army History Unit, AWM and Army records for a scope out on the issue.

The info I got back in a call alluded to Q-Store records stashed away that my acquaintance scrolled through and did find rifles in the manifest of a late 1916 departure of reinforcements. It listed Lithgow Mk IIIs but had what appeared to be reference to their rack numbers. AWM records also show that Lithgow made rifles were sent in large numbers in 1916 and this too was gained from scrolling through unit departures and Q records.

From my conversation with the gentleman, he said that most Lithgow rifles made up to late 1917 would have been sent overseas as the 100,00O AIF members that that stayed home.....were AIF enlisted by record however were in militias as well and required for home defence. The Recent research shows that the 100,00 was more likely around 40,000. They appeared to be using the left over MK1s and even Long Toms with only a small amount of Mk IIIs left behind. There simply wasn't enough Mk IIIs in the system.

The initial rush to set up the AIF meant that nearly all SMLEs in Australia that weren't given to the UK, were sent off with the initial jaunt to the Dardanelles. Shortages of UK made rifles and supply dilemmas until late 1915 meant that Lithgows were sent overseas as soon as the AIF got their hands on them. Older/worn out rifles and troops without rifles to take with them were given brand spanking new ones when they arrived. I was sent a link to a pic of 5 ALH soldiers in Egypt with a Mk1. Obviously awaiting a newer rifle! The AWM also has a 1917 Lithgow on display that was used by PTE GJ Giles and was taken off him by Charles Bean in 1918. It was issued to the 3MD in November 1917. Short Magazine Lee-Enfield No 1 Mk III* Rifle : Private G J Giles | The Australian War Memorial

I have a 1914 Lithgow (2MD) that was taken on strength by Sth African forces in August 1918 (Stamped on knox) It was upgraded to Mk VII however retains original sight bed but has had the ladder replaced. I shall try and add pics to a new post on here.

[lmg15]

mattyboy, the reference to Australia ceasing supply of rifles with troops embarked from Australia comes from the Official History.

This seemed to accord very well with my own spreadsheet of surviving rifles, as examples pre October 1915 are a lot less frequently encountered by a significant factor (0 to 3 rifles per 1000 pre vs 5 to 11 rifles per 1000 post Oct 1915), but I had not done much analysis of subsequent issues into late 916 and 1917. I crunched the numbers again and there are a couple of lean periods in the 75-80,000 (around August 1917) and 91 to 99,000 (May to August 1918). The idea here is that if the number of survivors in a given serial range is low, then probably went overseas and subject to attrition in action and transfer into the Brit arsenal system when undergoing repair. Higher number of survivors indicates they never left Australia for WW1.

I would be very interested to see the source material, as I may be able to add some value there. I have a good correlation of rifle serial numbers, military district numbers and issue dates, so some of those uncertainties could be resolved fairly quickly.

The matter of issuing Lithgow rifles to the AIF after the start of 1916 is something that there is obviously a lot more info available now, but as you say, were some of these rifles issued to the AIF but remained in Australia for continental defence?

I am sure that somewhere there must be a lot of info regarding the deliberations on adopting Mk.VII ammo during the war, and therefore the sighting of new production Lithgow rifles. They may have done some agonising over that, as introduction of Mk.VII ammo and rifles would make the logistics difficult during the transition period.

What is certain is that once WW1 ended, there was a headlong rush to convert Mk.VI sighted rifles to Mk.VII, and wind down stocks of Mk.VI ammo. The ammo figures are reported in the annual returns as well as the numbers of SMLE IIIs in Mk,VI ball and SMLE IIIs in Mk.VII ball as separate entries. The number of conversions conducted was also reported as a special line item. The program went well into the 1930s.

In terms of the numbers - 100,000, 40,000, etc, there are no great chunks that size out of the data. Remember that Lithgow went from May 1913 to September 1918 to make its first 100,000 rifles.

The other possibility is that the Lithgow rifles went overseas, but a very high number of them came back, thereby making the observations in the collected survivor data less relevant.

Regarding Giles's rifle, my data suggests it would be around the 79,000 serial range give or take, with a 3MD number around the 49,000 mark, which sort of coincides with one of the lean periods of data. It would be good to confirm if the rifle is sighted in Mk.VII ball, as you would expect if it served in France. So was the rifle sighted for Mk.VII ball at Lithgow pre Nov 1917, or was it done in France? Australian production of Mk.VII ball commenced in Jan 1918, so around the right sort of time.

It would be really good to see CEW Bean's or Treloar's handwritten notes / original accession documents describing everything in that bunch of kit including the rifle details. Pretty much all major collections throughout the world have been guided by curatorial bias and political objectives (and arguably rightly so) to be "on message", in which sometimes things are done to enhance the displays. Artists put it in terms of a series of lies to tell the bigger truth. Giles's rifle is probably legit, but just saying....

For example, there is a major collection that displays pre-WW1tunics which are obvious reproductions to the trained eye. The fact is that there are no examples of the early pre WW1 tunics around any more forces the curator's hand, so "you have to do what you have to do" to tell the story. Just saying....

In the end it will be the records that you refer to that will give the best and most accurate insight. I'm very much hoping to see them one day.

All the best,

D.

[mattyboy82]

Thanks mate!

Great data you have there. I would be guessing that Giles rifle would have been sighted for MK VII in order for it to have used ammunition from the brit supply chain.

I would love to be able to see that spreadsheet you have as I think I would be able to help out with my collection. All mine are pre-WW1 and the youngest is a couple of 1916 Lithgows. My latest purchase is a 1913 Lithgow which shows brit arsenal markings. My 1914 Lithgow (Attached in earlier pic) also shows basic sight upgrade which i am assuming was done soon as it got to France as it was given to Sth Africans in August 1918.

Many regards!

[Nigel]

Just been reading a very good 5 page article written by Murray Thompson about the Australian MkVI ammo in No.23 International Arms & Militaria Collector. It confirms what the experts have been saying on here - MkVI was used in Gallipoli, Sinai and Palestine campaigns whilst suitably sighted SMLE's and MkVII ammo was issued to Australian troops for service in Europe. What was interesting is that during 1917 the Melbourne Footscray factory produced 97 million rounds of MkVI ammo, most of which went in to storage; it was this ammo that was issued to various military and civilian rifle clubs in the mid-1920's. Reports started coming in of unexplained accidents which all related to this batch of ammo. Subsequent investigations revealed that some of this ammo was loaded with two bullets - very much a compressed load! I'd hate to be the guy who pulled the trigger on that load. All the ammo was recalled for weight testing prior to re-issue. The tested and passed ammo was packed in to packets and boxes that were rubber inked stamped with "CHECK WEIGHED MELB" and the date on the back. Surviving packets are known with dates from 1927 through to 1936. So if you have one of these stamped packets - you own an interesting piece of history.
One of the last issues of MkVI ammo went to New Guinea in 1939 (100,000 rounds) for the purpose of instructing European males in the use of the service rifle. This was sent as an immediate measure in respect to the defence of the Territory.
All credit to Murray Thompson for this 2005 article - right under our noses all this time!

[Madzi]

Slightly overdue, and still work in progress - comparison between MkVI and MKVII with 1916 SMLE MkIII* and Winchester B4 scope at 300yrds. Very strong gusty circa 15 knot left-right crosswind today - both the MKVI and MKVII were running circa 200fps slower at 300yrds than they should be, so will need to up the charge. (MkVI going through at 300yrds at circa 1300fps, and MkVII at 1700fps - should be 1500 and 1900 for initial muzzle velocities of 2200 fps (MkVI) and 2440 fps(MkVII). Sort that and will hopefully get tighter groups next time - my Metford was grouping very well with the MKVI at 2300fps initial MV a couple of weeks back). Same point of aim for both types - holding off to the left. Some interesting observations. Wind definitely impacting significantly more on the MkVI loads, but unexpectedly, not a significant difference in bullet drop, out to 300 yds at any rate - which would likely have been the sort of range (or less) that engagements were happening at Gallipoli.

[Madzi]

OK - think I'm now fairly close to the mark on muzzle velocities with the MkVII and MkVI loads, and the wind wasn't too bad at Bisley yesterday, although there was a light mist-rain/guti falling. I benchmarked with the mighty Winchester P14 with PPU factory boattail and factory iron-sights - the one flyer there was me, not the rifle or ammo, otherwise spot on. (Can see why Hesketh-Pritchard and my Grandfather held the P14 in such high regard...) I then put a string of MkVII loads through it - noted that it was throwing those slightly right and low (just off the black) for the first couple, so held high and right. Still slightly more variance than the boat-tail. Then put the MKVII through the scoped SMLE - wider group - bit of trigger work etc could help but probably realistic for a standard SMLE, but all in the black. I then put the MKVI loads through - initially all going low, so had to hold up aiming right at the top of the target square and then got them all in the black - circa 17 inches hold-over relative to the MKVII at 300 yards. Not quite as extreme as Nigel's holdover, but still significant - and interesting the difference that the 100fps on each load made to the difference between them compared to my previous outing - although the high wind could have impacted then in a number of ways, both on the lighter MKIV and the slower MkVI.

[Son]

I have been reading this thread with great interest in the amount of information coming together here. If I may, I would like to stck up some pictures of a rifle a mate scored here in from a lot imported from Turkey many years ago. It is a BSA made rifle, 1913 dated and unit disc marked to a Gurkha regiment that was all but wiped out at Gallipoli. (not right up on the exact history, looking for his notes now)
This rifle is sighted for MkVI ammunition and was never upgraded or even used since by the look of it. Although it was missing the front handguard, the rest of the rifle is all original and all matching from the build date. He had correspondence with (IIRC) the Gurkha Museum (?) who are very keen to get their hands on it.

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