Fake Canadian No 4(T)

[John R.]

Alan,you are talking to a guy who cut his teeth selling rock drill parts that we had made in South Africa for everyone ELSE'S rock drills here in Canada.We were truly HATED by the competition as we were ALSO importing and selling a BETTER rock drill as well .We got them to lay off with trying to slag our drills in return for NO LONGER selling the "pirate" drill parts.Instead we sold THEM all the parts and did they scrpa them??? Oh NO, they sold them as their own at full whack.

I am also quite ready to start having pirate PUMP parts made AGAIN if a certain American Multi National which I used to work for tries any more funny stuff.Cost them a bomb it did last time around the course and with this current economy I think they had best just keep sweet too.

[Surpmil]

For some time there has been a number of fake 4-T Enfields assembled in the Victoria BC area.

These are passed off (sold) at gun shows as real T rifles.

Recently I have been told that new 4T Scope mounts and pads are now being manufactured in Sidney BC just north of Victoria on Vancouver Island and the first set is either delivered or being finished and I am told they are not cheap.

Apparentl the fellow (so I am told) will be fitting out No4 rifles with the parts and selling tem as T rifles.

However, I have to say this is the word in the local gun community (not mine) and some have no nice words for the fake reproduction and sale of "said fakes".

Will report more as the product reaches the hands of all you out there.

Just be aware that if any 4T rifles seem to be coming out of Canada any time soon that one would be well advised to "check the unit with a microscope" or bear the knoweledge that you have been had.

I have seen real suspect stampings and markings on some of these rifles in the past eight years.
Have not bought one for that reason alone.

Regards
Terry in Victoria BC

Dear Terry,

The mounts that are being made for me are IWS bracket reproductions, nothing else. If you haven't seen it, they are fully described in my fixed price eBay listings. My feedback speaks for itself I think.

If you'd like a reproduction N92 style bracket I suggest you contact Dr. Payne.

I sold my last 'spare' original bracket to John as he has mentioned in this thread.

The bracket that I sold John in a moment of weakness(!) was numbered by me to match a No4(T) that I had completely refurbished. It came from the infamous "JR the Webley King" and while it had an excellent original barrel, it was ROUGH in finish and woodwork. I also didn't like the poor filing etc. on the receiver, so I tidied it all up, glass beaded, parkerized, painted in the military manner etc. It looks damn good now if do say so myself. That was more than 15 years ago of course and prices, scarcity and demand have made such refurbishing of a No4(T) unwise from a resale point of view. However, that was then and I did it to please myself, not anyone else.

Now that bracket happens to be the only thing I've ever renumbered. My rifle and if I want to refinish and renumber it, within the confines of law of course, no one's business but mine and as I still have the rifle I intend to get the bracket back one day as it will make a nice shooting set for those rare occasions when I get to the range.

If you'd spoken to me at the show a few years ago where John bought the bracket, I would have told you as I told everyone else who enquired about it, exactly what had been done to the mount and rifle.

I didn't have to tell anyone, and knowing how some people think, or don't, I suppose it would have been more 'tactical' not to say anything, but then I'd be passing it off as original and that isn't my game.

I don't know who's telling you the stories about building No4(T)s, I very much doubt anyone is doing so, certainly not me! Still it makes a good story and we all know how stories grow with the telling.

I go most of the lower island gunshows, I've never seen these "fake No4(T)s", how did you know they were fake?

[Surpmil]

That’s interesting Terry. I haven’t heard about that yet. Do you know who it is?
A number of years ago I saw a fellow selling what looked like a table full of NO4T’s at the Sidney B.C. show. On close inspection it became obvious they were fake but the seller was quite willing to let me believe (or so he thought) for some time they were original. He confessed he had made them when it became obvious I had some knowledge of the No4T.

Are you referring to me? My table was next to John's and it was 'several' years ago that I had several No4(T)s on a table out there.

I'm afraid I didn't "confess" to making any No4(T)s...I wish I could though.

Perhaps you are mis-remembering my explaining the renumbering of that bracket? IIRC the other rifles did not have scopes or brackets.

Those rifles have mostly gone to other collectors now, some perhaps even as well-informed as you, and so far none of them have complained about their "fake" No4(T)s...

[Surpmil]

In rsponse to No4 T's post above------

Yes I was a at that Sidney show as well and gave the poor (kidding) fellow a bit of an education on No4 t markings even though i am certainly NO expert.

Even I was able to figure out that this guy had back humped these rifles into bogus No4 T rifles.
Funny to see how as soon as he realized one knew what to look for his certainty in their "real status" dropped to --Zero in his descriptions of the rifles.

Sad to see scumbags willing to rip off fellow gun collectors. Wish I knew his name.

But to answer your question of--- (I haven’t heard about that yet. Do you know who it is?)

No I do not know the name of the fellow but can get it easy enough. (I think)

Regards
Terry in Victoria BC

What year was this again? And where exactly in the hall was this table?

I remember you wrote some piece about "How to tell if your No4(T) is a fake" back on the old Jouster forum. As I pointed out to you then, as politely as I could, some of your comments were inconsistent with Peter Laidler's book.

If you want to know my name, look in the credits thereof; though I should say that I didn't really deserve to be there and didn't know I was going to be.

I've owned two trials T's, a 1941 Maltby, and various BSA's over the years, 8 or 9 T's in all and about 30 No32 scopes. I've studied them pretty closely, along with the books and a couple of boxes of letters and notes from well-informed individuals.

You used complain on the Jouster site about the price of No4(T)s; do you actually own any?

[No4Mk1(T)]

The Long, tall ,bearded drink of water you guys are referencing.......

I'm not referring to any one person as I do not know the name of the person I talked to at the gunshow.

Are you referring to me? My table was next to John's and it was 'several' years ago that I had several No4(T)s on a table out there.

I have no idea who you are. Would that be John R to whom you are referring? I have corresponded with him via email a few times but to the best of my knowledge I have never met him in person.

I'm afraid I didn't "confess" to making any No4(T)s...I wish I could though.

If you didn’t confess then it wasn’t you. It’s that simple. The person I’m referring to told me outright that he had installed a few sets of reproduction pads onto bog stock No4Mk1s. I have no idea if the seller was trying to test ether my knowledge or the quality of his work but he allowed our conversation to go on until I said I felt the rifles were reproductions. I have no idea if said seller would have made a full discourser had I made an offer to purchase without demonstrating at least a basic knowledge of what I was looking at.

Perhaps you are mis-remembering my explaining the renumbering of that bracket? IIRC the other rifles did not have scopes or brackets.

IMHO renumbering of components to match a collectable rifle is fakery. Even if you disclose what you have done to the new owner what is to stop that person from passing it off as original? (granted this is unlikely being that you sold it to John R).

Those rifles have mostly gone to other collectors now, some perhaps even as well-informed as you, and so far none of them have complained about their "fake" No4(T)s...

I’m happy for both you and the buyers of your rifles however don’t you think it might be prudent to at least find out if it was you I was referring to or criticize my Enfield knowledge before making public comments like this? At no point did I say that “you” were selling “Fake” No4Mk1(T) rifles.
My comments above were simply relating what I experienced on one occasion. I have no idea if the person to whom I spoke and was offering the humped T’s and the person that Terry is referring are the same person.

[terryinvictoria]

My comments were based on conversations in the Victoria area with Enfield affectianadoes.

Secondly I never named anyone in the posts and would not. I do not make a habit of asking people in the gun world their names and therefore I have no names to give here nor would I post them if I new the individuals (ever)

a) first- I was told that some T rifles have been made up on the west coast over the past 10 years or so this was by a fellow that does have the knowledge and has inspected a few of these at gun shops and shows.

b) I was told that someone in the Victoria area was making (described as follows) exact reproductions of both pads and scope brackets so exact no one would be able to tell the difference. I did not ask the name or who this was.
I did find that hard to believe but thought it worth mentioning to the crowd here based on what I was later told.

c) An enfield owner said that some T rifles were going to be made in the Victoria area. I have no knowledge more than that. He said that an individual was going to make up some rifles with some made up brackets on No4 receivers?

d) As to the rifle at the gun show it was questionable, and I have no idea of whether this was you I certainly did not identify you nor did I give a name nor would I do so. when I questioned the rifle the owner seemed to back off or so I thought about the rifle's originality. Again I do not know you, nor do I know your name.

e) Putting all these together I think most would agree it is better to air the concerns that to sit back and watch some fellow collectors be skinned if in fact they are exposed to some fake rifle.

f) I am not an expert in the T world and have never said I am. I do however question the intent when considering the chatter in the Enfield community about a Fake T rifles in the community and more possibly being assembled. AND I do not know who this is, they could be buying parts from anyone or anywhere. I do not know in any way if this was you nor did I say that you were involved seeing as I do not know you as far as I know. It is certainly possible you do not know who might be doing this either.

Putting everything together though --it is better to mention it rather than sit back and watch.

Regards
Terry

[Amatikulu]

Before this turns into a thread that I need to close, "everyone take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard"

Nothing improper has taken place.....................YET in this thread

No person has been accused of anything.

Let's leave it that way unless someone has incontrovertible evidence (and it had better be good)

This has just been a discussion that has highlighted the well known term Caveat Emptor -let the buyer beware.

[Surpmil]

I'm not referring to any one person as I do not know the name of the person I talked to at the gunshow. Perhaps you could describe this person's appearance then?

I have no idea who you are. Would that be John R to whom you are referring? Correct. I have corresponded with him via email a few times but to the best of my knowledge I have never met him in person.

If you didn’t confess then it wasn’t you. It’s that simple. The person I’m referring to told me outright that he had installed a few sets of reproduction pads onto bog stock No4Mk1s. I have no idea if the seller was trying to test ether my knowledge or the quality of his work but he allowed our conversation to go on until I said I felt the rifles were reproductions. I have no idea if said seller would have made a full discourser had I made an offer to purchase without demonstrating at least a basic knowledge of what I was looking at.

IMHO renumbering of components to match a collectable rifle is fakery. Even if you disclose what you have done to the new owner what is to stop that person from passing it off as original? (granted this is unlikely being that you sold it to John R). You're entitled to your opinion. 19 or 20 years ago when I refurbished the rifle and bracket values and interest were not what they are today, nor was there ever any intention on my part to deceive, as my actions and statements clearly show.

What's to stop the new owner of any reproduction passing it off as original? Only the knowledge of the potential purchaser, as with every other kind of antique or collectible. The firearms world is FULL of reproductions, restorations and 'improvements' of one kind or another. They allow people to restore, complete and enjoy their firearms further. If you want to collect anything, you need to educate yourself about it and develop an eye for detail, simple as that.

I’m happy for both you and the buyers of your rifles however don’t you think it might be prudent to at least find out if it was you I was referring to or criticize my Enfield knowledge before making public comments like this? At no point did I say that “you” were selling “Fake” No4Mk1(T) rifles. John R. offered early in this thread the physical description of this individual that you quoted above. Apparently you agreed with it, since you quoted it, and did not contradict it. So it's pretty clear who is being referred to, since I fit that description and no one else selling No4(T)s a few years ago in Sidney does AFAIK. You're welcome to clarify the situation by describing this individual and their location in the hall etc.

As for "...before making public comments like this?", well, hoist on your own petard aren't you?

My comments above were simply relating what I experienced on one occasion. I have no idea if the person to whom I spoke and was offering the humped T’s and the person that Terry is referring are the same person.

Funny how people suddenly become a lot more judicious in their remarks when asked to verify them with a bit of evidence. I'm sure we'd all like to know what this mystery man looks like, what year's show we are discussing, and where exactly in the hall his table was?

.....

Regarding your comment above Amatikulu, that no one has been accused of anything, based on the quotes above I can't agree.

[Badger]

Hi guys ....

Threads like this concern me at a number of levels....

First, who the heck is Andy? I see a lot of people discussing and trashing a rifle based upon some guy named Andy's say so, originating from a U.K. based web site we can't even access from here without having a third party stenographer cut-n-paste information over here.

Second, I've seen no pictures of this specific rifle on which I could form any personal opinion, not even detailed specifics as to what the exact issue is?

Third, I didn't wade though it all, but the thread morphed from talking about a fake No.4(T) (in the UK?), into a vague anecdotal discussions about fraudulent dealers flogging items here in B.C. Canada. Inadvertently, it appears that we dragged into some question, the reputation of yet another individual who happens to be a member in good standing here, only because he lives in B.C., and from that people might draw inferences he's the dealer being referred to. Am I missing something here?

Here's my concern my friends. Someone owns this rifle and the value has instantly been diminished the moment our unknown friend Andy posted the original thread on the U.K. site. The thread went viral on the Internet and now it's on our site and regardless of whether the rifle is legitimate or not, the owner (and unnamed seller) have been drawn and quartered without any due process, or even having a fair opportunity to respond.

These kind of threads make me uncomfortable and they sound and read like soap operas, where it's almost as if we're taking relish in gossip and other people's misfortune.

So, if there's any reason that this thread should not simply disappear into the black hole of pseudo science because of it's like of factual support, details of the transactions with specific names, or more importantly, an actual photo album for ALL of us to view the rifle up close, then I'm listening...

Please send me a PM (or email) as to why it be allowed to stand. If I don't hear from anyone providing supporting materials, I'll assume most of you agree with me and I'll delete the thread, beacuse I don't wish it to be "screen scraped" from our site and passed onto another site as gospel.

Thanks for listening to an old guy who's had a tough day ...

Regards,
Badger (Doug)